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My parents that never wanted to get a pup in the first place are having a really hard time coping with the logistical nightmare associated with the new pup. The pup of 6 months is kept in a run for most of the day when i'm at varsity but it usually whines, barks and jumps when my mother gets home from work. This really stresses her out and the fact that once she's lying in her kennel we all have to tip-toe around trying to wake her. She's from extremely high drive working parents and hence wont just lie down inside. She can't be with the other dogs because firstly the two females wont get on and she can't bond with the other male because that's the worst thing that can happen if I want to train her seriously. I've been told that these sport dogs are always on the go and that I cant expect her to calm down much.

Any advice on what to do to make living more easy for my parents and me?
 

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She's lonely and bored.

I know there are people on here who do Schutzhund and allow their dogs to play together. I think the cautionary part is not to let the dogs be more bonded to one another than to you (which is the case for any dog, really). So finding her a dog playmate may actually be an option.

Is she getting enough exercise? I'm imagining she needs 2-4 hours of really challenging exercise (physical and mental) per day. Is she getting enough time with you?
 

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Sure-- stop listening to the folks you have been listening to.
You CAN intergrate this puppy into your family life. You CAN expect her to learn to settle indoors, and still do dogsport. You may (or may not) be correct that the pup will not get along with the female dog there-- never assume that "females don't get along." Tons of us have multiple-female homes. Many compete in sport very successfully and have
1. Housedogs, and
2. Dogs who can and do intergrate with the other dogs in the home.
This is not black-and-white.
This puppy sounds stimulated-- not like a high-drive sport puppy from working lines who is go-go-go-- but like ANY six month old who must watch a friendly, happy household in full swing-- and be left out of it. She is frustrated. She is lonely. She sees everyone interacting, and her frustration boils over.

Ask people who SUCCESSFULLY have their SchH dogs in the home from puppyhood on, to learn how to give her a life of intergrated happiness, fulfillment, and joy in being WITH people and other dogs she knows are there. She is lonely, frustrated, overstimulated and craving companionship that she knows is right there, going on without her.

It isn't your fault that you cannot be with her all the time. You do have a life. You would like her to have the dramatic flash-and-dash that will earn you points on the field. But, your parents are seeing her loneliness, frustration, and craving for being a part of the group that she knows is right there in front of her. She just wants to be included. You can find a way to ease her frustration, loneliness, and need to belong to the family. Her heart, and your desire for her to be zesty on the field, can both be satisfied. Ask competetive sport folks who have fully intergrated their dogs from puppyhood on, how they accomplished this. There are too many successful, competetive dogsport enthusiasts with happy, interfrated dogs who interact with the other dogs and people in the family, who enjoy drive building during training and make their handlers proud. Puppy doesn't feel sad, owner and pup have fun. Everybody wins.
 

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Originally Posted By: Craig88She's from extremely high drive working parents and hence wont just lie down inside. She can't be with the other dogs because firstly the two females wont get on and she can't bond with the other male because that's the worst thing that can happen if I want to train her seriously. I've been told that these sport dogs are always on the go and that I cant expect her to calm down much.
I'm not sure that this is all true. I've been told by very experienced, reputable working line breeders (people that train and compete) that a good working dog should have an OFF switch and is just as capable of settling in the house as any other "pet" dog. When the dog is ON the dog is much more ON than dogs with less drive, but just because a dog possesses the level of drive appropriate for sport should not mean the dog is always "up". To me, that is slightly neurotic and could be unhealthy for the dog. If someone honestly told me that sport dogs won't ever calm down and have to always be kept in runs away from other dogs, I'd be running, not walking, to another breeder or club!

It sounds like she is young, bored, and has a lot of energy to burn. I have a dog I got from a rescue and he has NO drive compared to a working GSD but even he gets restless and noisy when he is bored, needs exercise, and people are coming and going. We worked with him a lot on house manners and settling in a crate for situations where he must be crated or tethered and now it's not a problem. It's something that needs to be worked on, the dog doesn't know to settle in the kennel, especially a young one. But I disagree that a working line dog cannot be trained appropriate house manners.
 

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Originally Posted By: BrightelfSure-- stop listening to the folks you have been listening to.
You CAN intergrate this puppy into your family life. You CAN expect her to learn to settle indoors, and still do dogsport.
The day we met my pups father Xander (highdrive DDR competes in SchH), we spent about 30 minutes outside throwing the ball, the dumbbell and watching him work work work. Then we went inside for my DD to use the bathroom. Xander walked calmly to the back of the house and layed down on his bed. He was released and he continued to walk around calmly watching what my kids were doing and behaving quietly while his owner and I looked at some stuff on her laptop. Then we went back outside and he switched back on.

It can be done and Xander is just one example.
Xander
 

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Exercise her every morning before you leave. If that means you have to get up a bit earlier, so be it. Spend time training with her when you get home and exercise again. Play games with her. It can be done in short sessions. The dog is just bored in the run and rightfully so. She should be made a part of the family as much as possible. You cannot expect any dog much less a high drive dog and a puppy at that, to sit in a run all day long and be perfectly calm. She needs exercise, mental stimulation and some pack involvement. So, you need to start incorporating these three things into her life on a daily basis. Keep her on a regular routine, be patient, fair and consistent. If you feel you may have gotten this dog at the wrong time in your life (your parents didn't really want her in the first place) you would be better of finding a good home for her now while she is still young. Otherwise, everyone needs to be accepting of her being there and she needs to be treated as part of the pack, both human and dogs.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks for the advice guys. She's 6 months old now and was previously kenneled whilst at the breeder. Her father is a dog called Yarek vom talka marda and i've been told he's always on the go and is always wanting to work by his owner so there might be a chance she'll also be like that. I've also been told that I can get her to calm down but then she'll have very little drive. I can believe that as another pup, of the same age, at our club is such an obedient dog and sits when the owner talks to me but is not interested in chasing a ball what so ever which is the last thing I want. I don't feel comfortable leaving the maid responsible of possible dog fights and just the pup in general so I think the run is the only option, at least for now, whilst i'm at varsity each day. I would ideally like all dogs to lie down at my feet whilst relaxing in front of the tv but I doubt it will be possible with this third one. She goes non-stop at my male and I cant see this calming down with her energy level.

I currently walk her in the morning, put her in run and feed her before heading of the varsity for the day. When I get back at 4 ish I take her down to the club for a bit and then bring her home and let her have the run of the back yard while I 'try' work. Then feed her around 7ish and put her in crate at about 9ish and maybe a toilet before bedtime depnding on how late that is after 9.

Any suggestions?
 

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Just a suggestion, and I'm not saying you're not getting good advice here ... BUT instead of posting here in the GENERAL INFORMATION forum, why don't you try getting advice on either a TRAINING & BEHAVIOR forum board or one of the SCHUTZHUND AND THE RING SPORTS forum boards? You might find more people who have experienced/resolved problems similar to yours in one of these forums.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=cfrm&c=16
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=cfrm&c=10

GOOD LUCK!!!
 

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Originally Posted By: Craig88 I've also been told that I can get her to calm down but then she'll have very little drive.
If this statement is true than she doesn't have enough drive to start with. I believe if a dog is genetically high drive than he can be laying around on couches all day and still will fire up and work with passion when it's time to work.

It also seems that your pup doesn't get enough exercise.
 

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If the main issue is when you are gone, then there's only so much you can do. You have to supervise her time with other dogs since you do not want her to get dominated. You can, however have her in the home with you when you are home. You just need to approach teaching manners differently by shaping behavior positively using redirection and ignoring her when she's a butthead.

Maybe crate her in a quiet area while you are gone, just as a thought. Also, a walk is like a drop in the bucket to a working line high energy pup so maybe think about doint soe drive building with her in the morning and long retrieves with a ball launcher leading into recalls for a bite.
 

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Originally Posted By: Craig88 I've also been told that I can get her to calm down but then she'll have very little drive.
Right now I'm looking at my 22 month old female snooze on the couch. She is very calm in the house, and almost on crack on the field. I have had some of the top helpers and trainers in the world (Bernhard Flinks and Michael Ellis to name two) tell me that she has more than enough drive for the work. It can be done with proper genetics, and if she has drive you can absolutely teach her to settle in the house. All of this theory comes from 30 years ago when dogs were not trained in or bred for prey drive.
 

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Your pup may not be a go-go-go high drive dog at all.. or she may be. All that is really obvious is that she needs WAY more excersise than you are giving her. You are gone for the day. She needs SOMEONE to interact with her.

The dog at the club that is wonderfully obedient yet lacks ball drive... these two factors have nothing to do with eachother. Tons of wonderfully drivey dogs have had their handlers invest time into them during puppyhood to do both drive building AND obedience for living intergrated into a family.

Arrange for someone to walk the pup during the day. Hire someone, if need be.

Sure, post in the Schutzhund forum. There has to be people there who can explain that an active, drivey pup CAN be intergrated with the family, the other dogs, be well-mannered in the house-- and still enjoy the sport with enthusiasm. The difference is, you need to make the time to gently, patiently teach her good behaviors, introduce her to the other dogs, allow her time with the family, and maybe even take some dog classes if the club you belong to has members who are unable to share with you how they intergrate young pups from the get-go into their homes and families.

Just my opinion: hire a dog walker, give this pup more walking and ball playing and excersise yourself, and spend more time training her AT HOME, not just at the club. This youngster is a HUGE investment of your time. Her ability to settle and focus and control herself are waiting for you to bring them out. Bringing out drive at the club is only half of what you need. The skills for living with a family-- now, or in the future should you have a wife and kids-- can be established now without obliterating her drive. She craves doing something with you. Make more time for her, teach her to calm herself, work on self control = good things, and build drive at the club, and at home with play, too. If you don't teach her self-control, where and how will she learn it, before she becomes too BIG and strong to be uncrated in the home? She really needs much more involvement on your part... can you carve out more time for her?
 

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I do not and never will believe that theory that you can't let your puppy play with other dogs. The only reason I can think of for this theory is for people that don't spend enough time themselves with their dog so the dog does bond more with other dogs. I personally believe that isolating your dog like this tends to lead to dog aggression and a bored and unhappy dog.

My dog is now 15 months and just got his BH in SchH and is doing well in SchH. I have two other dogs of my own and almost always have a foster dog too for him to play with. This dog is totally bonded to me, very dog friendly, and is still high drive when out training. Your dog either has drive or he doesn't and letting him in the house or playing with other dogs is not going to change that.

In your case, I would highly recommend moving the dog in the house and keep him crated when you or your parents aren't home. Also exercise, exercise, and more exercise. This will help keep him quieter in the house and make him a happier dog while spending good bonding time with you.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Ok thanks again guys. I took her for a walk with my other dog this morning and initially had to use every muscle in my shoulders to keep them apart but after a while they both ignored each other and she stopped biting and irritating the older one. I think if I do this enough they will learn that the other one is not as great as they think and hopefully not rough play at home with each other but settle down together.

I would ideally like to get to the situation where all 3 dogs sleep in the kitchen as the two current dogs are doing now. I don't think she needs to be walked extensively as i'm cautious about her hips but so far I do this in the morning and maybe in the evening or after training at club. She now romps around the back and sometimes front yard so i'm sure she's tiring herself out in some way there.

Can you give me ideas on how to instill obedience yet not kill drive? I've been told that these sport dogs must be brought up with mininmal manners and can do what ever they like. I've got a similiar problem with my rottie that was brought up with lots of obedience at dog classes and now has minimal drive.

Would you recommend keeping her crated from about 9 till 3 when i'm at varsity then out and about after that until bed time when crated? What would be the best solution if I go out for supper or sleep over at my girl friends house wrt to the pup?

Thanks
 

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As so many other posters have said, if the ball drive is there it's not going to go anywhere. My Belgian Malinois is very well trained and has amazing ball drive. His ball drive has gotten more intense since I've trained him and not less intense. I think making a different post over in the Schutzhund section is the way to get specific exercises to work with her on though.

And don't worry about walking her too much! Walking will not adversely affect her hips. As long as she's getting proper nutrition and is not genetically predisposed to hip dysplasia she should be fine. She's too young to run as that is very high impact on the joints but long walks are actually really good for her!
 

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Just my viewpoint: You somehow got yourself a workinglines pup without much real support. You don't have friends there to show you that "no manners or it'll kill drive" is old-think, and untrue. You need pals who show you sportdogs who can and do relax at home. This will give you guidance. Depending on the net and forums are difficult. Is there anyone at this club or another club you can check out, who has housedogs?

I honestly think you are at a busy point in your life and sleeping over at the girlfriends, being away at varsity, going out to supper etc are all normal for your age. But, your pup needs you to be more involved than a coupla walks and some time at the club. Being in the back yard is never enough for a dog. A walk or two also usually isn't enough for a GSD. What about a dog walker to come and walk her mid day? How about letting her be with the other dogs during the day? You aren't ruining her for sport if she has some time out of her crate with them... if this were true, most of the dogs people compete with would be hiding in isolation in their own crates until age 2. She needs time to stretch and move her developing young body. She needs time out of that crate during the day. She needs you to make more time for her training, instead of just the club. Ask at the club for obedience stuff to do with her at home. If they give you a line about it killing drive, FIND ANOTHER CLUB that is more enlightened. Drive is what we use to get the obedience going in the first place. As baby puppies, we use food drive. We use play drive, with a toy for motivation. They learn sit, down, stay, etc all pretty quickly.. and that drive is just bubbling, because well, heck-- you have been working drive all along with those sits and downs using food reward and later toy/play. Then, you move from situations of zero distraction (livingroom) to higher distraction in small, incremental steps.. your back yard doing those sits and downs for another week. Then, you do them with her at the park on quiet weekdays.... then in a few weeks when she is doing great, giving you focus, sits and downs there-- do it all at the park on saturdays and sundays or after 4 pm when kids will be there providing further distractions. Get success at one level, then go to the next. Drive? FOOD! TOY! It won't go away with obedience, it is what fuels the obedience, makes it fast, fun, and it shows you that GSDs really have engagement in working WITH us.

Find another club if the club you have only has folks who are BSing, bragging, and not giving you the how-to advice you need on how to intergrate this pup into a family. You can enjoy sport and really have fun competing with her, yet allow her to live with your family. Give her more obedience work at home. On walks. In new situations. Focus work with a puppy is something my fave Schutzhund club starts EARLY... they add distractions, till the puppy is even at the point another member can nudge-nudhe the puppy's butt with the toe of their sneaker, and she won't break focus or her sit! Then, imagine that transfering into snappy heelwork? They play tuggy lots with the pup, and she learns to out.. she learns to sit.. to bark, to stop barking, to down.. and her drive is fulfilled when she gets her tuggy-tussle reward with vigorous play. What pup wouldn't want more of the same next time?
 

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an islolated GSD is a problem in the making.I have a very mean GSD, she has raised three different puppies,I decide who is in my home, not her.I also have three cats-aggression within us is not allowed-ever.
EXERCISE EXERCISE EXERCISE you must run your dog before you go-period. I have worked 70 plus hours a week,have a kid and was in school and still ran my dog everyday. she is almost 10 and she still runs everyday.
A GSD is a smart dog and a joy and an asset in life with the proper care.THE first year is the hardest but any young dog needs to be trained.put the time in ,join a class and integrate this dog into the family where it belongs.
 

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Originally Posted By: Craig88
I don't think she needs to be walked extensively as i'm cautious about her hips but so far I do this in the morning and maybe in the evening or after training at club. She now romps around the back and sometimes front yard so i'm sure she's tiring herself out in some way there.
How long(time wise) or far do you walk her?

"I don't think she needs to be walked extensively...." I believe that this is a LOT of the problem. If you can't take her somewhere and let her run loose, she is going to need a LOT of walking to tire her out.
When you say: " She now romps around the back and sometimes front yard"...
Is she alone or are you playing ball with her, or in some other way interacting with her? Or is she just "left to her own devices"?
 

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A few comments and suggestions...

1. Walking is great, and especially when you have multiple dogs since they learn to move in unison under your direction but for high energy high drive dogs stop considering it exercise. I could walk my two for ten miles, and they'd still be ready to train. You can achieve what you want (a physically worn out and mentally satisfied puppy) in 20 minutes of intense work with her. For this I really like the game shown in Leerburg's drive and focus DVD with Bernhard Flinks found here http://leerburg.com/101e.htm . The game shown helps you bring out all of her drive while increasing your bond with her. I played that for about fifteen minutes with my young female and then did about 5 minutes of long retrieves using a ball launcher and then recalling her for a bite on a tug. That 20 minutes would get her tongue wagging like crazy and would blow out all of that energy. I also work up quite a sweat, and since this is dog SPORT not dog leisure if you are not you need to work harder. Do not ever think she will tire herself out by running in the yard. She won't.

2. Your Rott has no drive because it's a rott. Sure, there are some that have drive but they are few and far between. You currently have a working line female bred to do what you want. Obedience if done properly will not kill that drive at all. In fact, if done properly it can begin to teach her how to "cap" her drive while performing a command quickly for an immediate bite on a tug afterward. But, you just start using food to teach the movements of sit, down and stand, come, heel, look (or focus, whatever you want to use). Once they do the basic movements for food reliably then you can use the words, and you end up with a young dog that always obeys OB commands. Doing this in conjunction with rag/bite pillow work (ideally with a helper if possible once a week and the rest back tied to a pole on your own) will not reduce her drive at all and since you're working your protection foundation as well she will not become "handler dependent" on the field from the OB. Once she has a grasp on the basic commands and reliable complies then introduce them in drive during your tug games. She has to down for a split second before firing up high for a bite. Same with sit. When she comes, she comes for a bite which will develop a lightning fast recall. Just understand no corrections now, all inductive and positive. You can also shape her behavior in the home by redirecting to inside toys for chewing and helping her settle.

3. When in doubt use a crate.

Feel free to PM me on anything. I just dumped a lot of information on you.
 

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Yes, like John says for my working lines bitch a walk is a social event, not exercise. Heck, she's not even THAT drivey and not as energetic as some GSDs, but I could walk her all day and she'd still be ready to go for real when we get home. Usually after a long walk she wants to play fetch, run zoomies around the yard, or tries to get Coke to wrestle. I have to be almost sprinting just to get her in a gait, so walking along is about as much exercise as she gets just wandering around the house.
 
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