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Discussion Starter #1
I've heard of them before. I think it totally ruins the breed. Does anybody know how this coloring came about? (ex. breeding a GSD with a part GSD part other breed dog?)
That sounded so stupid but ya'll know what I'm getting at I'm sure?
Just like the merle genes in some dogs! There had to be a break in the chain SOMEWHERE because it's not albino and it's surely not black and tan!
 

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Originally Posted By: Chicagocanine
It was a gene mutation which caused a type of white patterning. There were no mixed breeds or other breeds involved.
Yep. I also don't think it will ruin the breed. So far there have been no health problems linked to the gene mutation (such as health problems linked to double merle etc.) The breeders that are working with panda shepherds seemed responsible to me, titling and health checking parents before breeding. I don't see how this is any different than white GSDs "ruining the breed" and I think if WGSDs can never be shown as GSDs, then support them being recognized as their own breed so they can.
 

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Originally Posted By: KaitykaityThere had to be a break in the chain SOMEWHERE because it's not albino and it's surely not black and tan!
Are you meaning white shepherds when you say albino? Because white GSDs are not albino, albino is a complete lack of coloring leading to clear hair shafts that appear white and pink eyes. Correctly bred white GSDs have black leather. Also, many white shepherds will have a cream or orange pigment on them, including some shepherds that are genetically white but appear cream/beige over the entire body.

The white gene that leads to white toes or white on the chest is not the same as the genes for white shepherds. This was a false misconception that lead to white shepherds being disqualified from showing; as breeders believed breeding a white GSD lead to more/larger white on colored dogs.
 

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They are all GSD genetically. No break in the chain as far as breeding. Spontaneous genetic mutation does occur.. its that kind of world. Some like the color, some don't but the original parentage was a two black and tan all GSD pairing.
 

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Originally Posted By: FuryanGoddessI have never heard of such a thing, but looking at the pix of them, I think they're cute. I like it, which is odd because I'm not that big of a fan of the all white or all black? Weird...
Dakota is pretending he didn't hear that. Well technically he has white on his legs.....So I guess he doesn't count.
 

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The Italian One
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Originally Posted By: SambaThey are all GSD genetically. No break in the chain as far as breeding. Spontaneous genetic mutation does occur.. its that kind of world.
As I recall there was no DNA testing saying these dogs are purebreds. I'll have to go look for those old threads because I don't remember for sure. I do recall that they are registered as having a sire & dam that are registered as GSDs.

Spontaneous genetic mutation does occur. Spontaneously not repeatedly.
 

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Originally Posted By: Vinnie

As I recall there was no DNA testing saying these dogs are purebreds.
I think Phenom might disagree with that. There is a person on here with a Phenom Panda Shepherd.

http://www.pandashepherds.com/genetic_panda_info

If there is a genetic mutation and that dog is bred (the daughter) then it makes sense that the mutated gene would pass down the line to the puppies making it repeatable.
 

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The Italian One
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Originally Posted By: Jax08
Originally Posted By: Vinnie

As I recall there was no DNA testing saying these dogs are purebreds.
I think Phenom might disagree with that. There is a person on here with a Phenom Panda Shepherd.

http://www.pandashepherds.com/genetic_panda_info
I think you should maybe quote my whole statement and not take one line out of context. The dogs are "registered" as GSDs. The original Panda (Franka or something like that) is DNA tested to have the sire & dam she is registered to but they are not DNA tested to be purebred GSDs. Registration is not a guarantee.


Quote:If there is a genetic mutation and that dog is bred (the daughter) then it makes sense that the mutated gene would pass down the line to the puppies making it repeatable.
So what would be the reason they would call it "spontaneous"?
 

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I didn't realize I had taken your post out of context. I do know I didn't deserve to get my [censored] chewed on for my post that included information from a PhD.

If you feel my post is so completely out of line then feel free to delete it.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Thank you guys, I was just curious.
And didn't mean to offend anybody by saying 'ruins'. I used the wrong word there. I so badly wanted a pure white GSD before I wanted a black one (funny how that changed.. everything I own is either black, white or grey as it is.. only makes sense that my dog should be too!!) and I used to have breeders telling me that the whites were generally larger than other colored gsds. I recall reading that they are somewhat of their own breed, Swiss German or something.
 

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The Italian One
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Originally Posted By: Jax08I didn't realize I had taken your post out of context. I do know I didn't deserve to get my [censored] chewed on for my post that included information from a PhD.

If you feel my post is so completely out of line then feel free to delete it.
What? I think you're overreacting a little bit. No one chewed on you. I just made a simple statement because I felt you quoted me out of context. No big deal.

However, I’m still curious how a “spontaneous” genetic mutation can reoccur so frequently.
 

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Originally Posted By: Vinnie
Jax08 said:
However, I’m still curious how a “spontaneous” genetic mutation can reoccur so frequently.
A spontaneous mutation just means that it happened suddenly and with no particular cause. It does not mean that it cannot be passed on to offspring and the phenotype repeated in those offspring. Once the mutation has occured, it is part of the genetic material which is inherited by the individual's offspring.

If you check the posted link, you will find a letter from a geneticist from the U of C vet school and the genetic profile they mapped for the gene mutation.
You will also find this info:

Quote: The novel mutation occurred in the Sire's germ line, and was then passed down to his daughter, who was the only offspring of that sire to show the distinguishing markings.

· In subsequent generations, the Panda pattern has exhibited an autosomal dominant mode of inheritance, consistent with the action of a single gene acting with full penetranpe.
If you want more information on the gene, the geneticist's phone number and email address are listed on the page.
 

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The mutation occured only once in the original pup. The gene is dominant. The rest in the litter did not experience the mutation and are black/tan.

Genetic mutations can occur spontaneously. That gene is then changed and can be inherited by the offspring of the changed gene "owner".
 

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If the gene mutation has been located-- meaning it is proven the coloration is the result of a gene mutation-- why would you think the dogs are not purebred?

If the gene is autosomal dominant, it could not have come from a grandparent or further back ancestor being of a different breed, because the coloration would have been present in all the dogs who inherited that gene from the ancestor, meaning Franka's mother or father and a grandparent and so on would have shown the same coloration because you only need one copy of the gene to exhibit the coloration.
 

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The Italian One
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Originally Posted By: ChicagocanineIf the gene mutation has been located-- meaning it is proven the coloration is the result of a gene mutation-- why would you think the dogs are not purebred?
Because I don't accept things blindly.
I'm not saying it's not true but I have a right ask questions if I want.

Because I know the only DNA test on these dogs was regarding the gene and the sire & dam. No one knows for sure if the sire & dam are purebred GSDs. They are "registered" as such but that doesn't amount to much, IMO. Even according to the UCDavis Ph.D. they didn't test any further.
 
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