German Shepherds Forum banner

1 - 20 of 103 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have an 8 yr old GSD, Rex, whom is my life. Lately I have been playing with the idea of getting a puppy to have Rex help train before he gets too old. Not sold on the idea yet, but just starting to think about it.

I am obsessed with unique coloring, but would love a purebred GSD because Rex is such an amazing dog. I recently came across Panda Shepards and LOVE their coloring! However, everything I find - even in here - the links are broken and the info is old.

Does anyone know a breeder in or around Michigan that breeds purebred, AKC pandas? I don't want to show, just want to verify it isn't a cross being passed off as a shepherd. I want the brain and personality of a pure shepherd, but would love an unexpected color if possible.

Send me over anyone you have seen that breeds panda shepherds - thanks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,408 Posts
You are not likely to find any truly good breeders producing off-standard colors or breeding specifically for color within standard. (I'll leave the white shepherd discussion out of this post.)

The panda pattern is a mutation, and I would be suspicious of a breeder who was consistently producing panda puppies: What are they overlooking in terms of health and temperament in order to get the panda markings?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,843 Posts
^ That, 100%. Ask yourself what is more important to you- having that solid temperament and health you love in your current GSD, or the look of a unique mutation. The odds of getting both in one package are really stacked against you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
646 Posts
A panda puppy will be very expensive and that right there is a red flag for bad, greedy breeders who only care about money

Some colors are a DQ for AKC so I think finding a reputable breeder only breeding for pandas would be nigh impossible

I know when I was looking I would've also loved a panda. Found out how much they were and stopped looking there and decided to get a red and black GSD. Well, Zoe was within our budget, and her mom was a red and black with a sable dad. Zoe is a wonderful patterned sable and has red coloring on her head... so I kind of got what I wanted, haha

I mean, I'd rather have a slightly ugly car that is reliable rather than a bitchin' looking car that drives like crap and is utterly useless

A long living, healthy dog will give you much more happiness than something that looks amazing, but riddled with health issues (I'm not saying they are, I'm just making an analogy)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
82 Posts
I specifically know quite a few Panda Shepherd breeders who breed dogs out of either health tested and titled parents or just health tested parents at the least. Their puppies are usually priced the same as their traditional colours and I would consider them very reputable.

I believe coloured breeders get a bad rep because people often associate them with greed, byb, or producing mediocre dogs but times are changing and colour is just that. Colour.

It neither affects the workibility, temperment or drive of the dog and doesn't make the breeder a bad one.

Personally I'm not sure how people are more readily accepting of oversized dogs (which does affect workibility) over off-standard colour, but thats just me.

**Also wanted to add that the Panda mutation is dominant meaning these breeders aren't breeding only Panda's. They can breed any dog with the mutation to any dog without it and produce panda puppies. That means theres always the possibility of actually having some great lines in your dog.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,106 Posts
I specifically know quite a few Panda Shepherd breeders who breed dogs out of either health tested and titled parents or just health tested parents at the least. Their puppies are usually priced the same as their traditional colours and I would consider them very reputable.

I believe coloured breeders get a bad rep because people often associate them with greed, byb, or producing mediocre dogs but times are changing and colour is just that. Colour.

It neither affects the workibility, temperment or drive of the dog and doesn't make the breeder a bad one.

Personally I'm not sure how people are more readily accepting of oversized dogs (which does affect workibility) over off-standard colour, but thats just me.

**Also wanted to add that the Panda mutation is dominant meaning these breeders aren't breeding only Panda's. They can breed any dog with the mutation to any dog without it and produce panda puppies. That means theres always the possibility of actually having some great lines in your dog.
There are always people on here looking for panda's/blues/livers and whatever. If you know of reputable breeders of such dogs please post.
But I have to be honest, I just pulled up about 10 different panda breeders that ranged from sketchy at best to not much better then mills. One place breeding every color of the rainbow and claiming to be superb breeders, no mention of health testing, no pedigrees linked or even registered names and a whole lot of the old fashioned even tempered great with my kids raised in my kitchen and of course straight backed. Even a pay here button. Oh and the "no good dog is a bad color" quote.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,265 Posts
I specifically know quite a few Panda Shepherd breeders who breed dogs out of either health tested and titled parents or just health tested parents at the least. Their puppies are usually priced the same as their traditional colours and I would consider them very reputable.

I believe coloured breeders get a bad rep because people often associate them with greed, byb, or producing mediocre dogs but times are changing and colour is just that. Colour.

It neither affects the workibility, temperment or drive of the dog and doesn't make the breeder a bad one.

Personally I'm not sure how people are more readily accepting of oversized dogs (which does affect workibility) over off-standard colour, but thats just me.
Color is not just color, it is a serious fault. The goal should be to breed as close to standard as possible.

From AKC:
Official German Shepherd Breed Standard

Color: The German Shepherd Dog varies in color, and most colors are permissible. Strong rich colors are preferred. Pale, washed-out colors and blues or livers are serious faults. A white dog must be disqualified.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
646 Posts
Color is not just color, it is a serious fault. The goal should be to breed as close to standard as possible.

From AKC:
Official German Shepherd Breed Standard

Color: The German Shepherd Dog varies in color, and most colors are permissible. Strong rich colors are preferred. Pale, washed-out colors and blues or livers are serious faults. A white dog must be disqualified.
AKC is also the reason dachshunds have back problems because "longer is better" and pugs getting worse on breathing because "the flatter the face the better." As far as I'm concerned, the AKC is a joke and ruins breeds
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,265 Posts
AKC is also the reason dachshunds have back problems because "longer is better" and pugs getting worse on breathing because "the flatter the face the better." As far as I'm concerned, the AKC is a joke and ruins breeds
One has nothing to do with the other. The GSD standard is accepted. I happened to take it from the AKC website. From United Schutzhund Clubs of America.

Colors

Colors are black with reddish-brown, brown and yellow to light grey markings; single-colored black, grey with darker shading, black saddle and mask. Unobtrusive, small white marks on chest as well as very light color on insides are permissible, but not desirable. The tip of the nose must be black in all colors. Dogs with lack of mask, light to piercing eye color, as well as with light to whitish markings on the chest and the insides, pale nails and red tip of tail are considered to be lacking in pigmentation. The undercoat shows a light greyish tone. The color white is not allowed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
82 Posts
Colour doesn't affect the workibily of the breed at all. Before the standard was set there were many different colours. If blues had been the standard colour then black and tans would be the ones being considered as faults. If you think of it in that way then you realize how much colour is based on preference and not actual functionality.

Colour IS just colour, its someones preference turned into standard that has no barings on the quality of the dog. The only reason theres so much stigma against these offstandard colours is because people put them on this pedestal and treat them differently then they do dogs of a standard colour.

This dog is liver so it must be defective.
This dog has white spotting so its obviously poorly bred.

While that may be the case in some dogs and some lines, colour isn't the culprit of a poorly bred dog, poor breeders are

I've seen livers with extremely rich colouring. So rich you wouldve thought they were black. I've also seen pandas come in rich black and red. And whites throw rich tans. Long ago it was assumed whites diluted the colour of the breed. That was debunked and we now know better.

Panda isn't even a DQ OR a fault if we're going into logistics. Go a read the AKC standard yourself and you'll see that no where does it fault a dog for having large amounts of white (SV is actually different)

So that begs the question "why aren't they shown?"
Because the misinformation going around that they are a DQ or a fault. People arent aware that they can be shown. And while a Panda wouldn't necessarily place due to preference of the judge they also wouldn't automatically be faulted like livers or blues nor would the automatically be DQ'd like whites. It would be strictly up the the individual judge.

This whole idea that certain colours are "bad" or "subpar" just because of their colour is interesting to me when apparently its okay to have 110 standard colours and long coated variation, both at which do affect the dogs original purpose.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,265 Posts
AKC is also the reason dachshunds have back problems because "longer is better" and pugs getting worse on breathing because "the flatter the face the better." As far as I'm concerned, the AKC is a joke and ruins breeds
One has nothing to do with the other. The GSD standard is everywhere. I happened to take it from the AKC website. From United Schutzhund Clubs of America:

Colors

Colors are black with reddish-brown, brown and yellow to light grey markings; single-colored black, grey with darker shading, black saddle and mask. Unobtrusive, small white marks on chest as well as very light color on insides are permissible, but not desirable. The tip of the nose must be black in all colors. Dogs with lack of mask, light to piercing eye color, as well as with light to whitish markings on the chest and the insides, pale nails and red tip of tail are considered to be lacking in pigmentation. The undercoat shows a light greyish tone. The color white is not allowed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,986 Posts
My strong belief is that any dog who is healthy, performing at something and titling, with a good temperament judged not only by the people who live with and love that dog but also unbiased and educated third parties in some fashion...any dog meeting above criteria should not be "disqualified" or thought to be lesser because of its color.

The whites are rather a separate thing at this point and I don't think they should be included with the rest of the color issue. As I have said before they didn't exactly choose to breed only for white for fun, they were kicked out of the breed so they don't have much choice.

Breeders who breed for exotic colors to sell to pet people are not reputable breeders.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
82 Posts
If I met a panda GSD that worked sheep properly or functioned competitively in a breed-appropriate working venue, I would think highly of the dog and follow its progeny with interest.

Somehow that just doesn't happen.
You're right, its not common at all which I think is sad, but I do know people who are aspiring towards those goals and others who have sadly tried and were not welcomed (we're talking completely turned away by clubs and trainers) and thus got discouraged and gave up.

One has to remember that when looking at dogs who are used in areas such as IPO, most people look for the high drive working line. That means the usual people who are looking into the offstandards are pet owners, people who will never compete or only to small trials. So that means even if the dog DOES have what it takes, they'll never get a chance to prove it and thats why its not common to see any offstandard dogs in those venues.

Luckily as I said above, times are changing and alot of people who work with off standard colours are switching gears to breed higher drive dogs that they can actually title, as up until recently people were breeding more mellow "family friendly" dogs. And seeing breeders who are determined to make a big splash and become more active to show their dogs aren't any different.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
82 Posts
My strong belief is that any dog who is healthy, performing at something and titling, with a good temperament judged not only by the people who live with and love that dog but also unbiased and educated third parties in some fashion...any dog meeting above criteria should not be "disqualified" or thought to be lesser because of its color.

The whites are rather a separate thing at this point and I don't think they should be included with the rest of the color issue. As I have said before they didn't exactly choose to breed only for white for fun, they were kicked out of the breed so they don't have much choice.

Breeders who breed for exotic colors to sell to pet people are not reputable breeders.
I think the thing to remember here is that its not the colour that makes the dog bad, but the breeder themselves.

As I mentioned above, one of the biggest reasons offstandard coloured breeders cater to pet people is because I think most are very clearly aware that people who show or compete in working venues, aren't interested in those offstandards. While I don't believe diluting a dogs temperment down to suit a family is right, I will admit to understanding why if they know those are going to be the only people who are interested (I guess similar to the breeders who breed those 130lbs docile monsters).
If it were the case that people who worked their dogs didn't care about the colours and only the workibility, drive, and temperment and lets say, found a nice liver that fit those standards then we may have found that more breeders worked towards that instead of producing pet quality dogs.

I also think that if offstandard colours wouldn't have been such a "hot topic" most irreptuable breeders wouldn't have any leverage at which to sell their dogs at. Its kind of like telling a child they can't have a certain candy and forbidding it and then the child buying that candy while they're alone just because it was forbidden. It becomes so much more "valuable" when in reality its not.

I'm super into dog coat colour genetics, so id be lying if I said I wouldn't be one to want to breed every colour just out of sheer curiosity of discovering the genetics behind it all.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,744 Posts
For the people saying that color is just color...

Have you researched what happens when two blue merle Australian shepherds are bred together? Deaf, blind, dead pups. Color is not just a color all the time. A dog with a mutation like panda could have hidden health issues or genes that could be passed on to CAUSE health issues. Color mutations like that are usually not wise to breed. It is still a mutation, and no, color is not always just color. It has hidden consequences.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
82 Posts
For the people saying that color is just color...

Have you researched what happens when two blue merle Australian shepherds are bred together? Deaf, blind, dead pups. Color is not just a color all the time. A dog with a mutation like panda could have hidden health issues or genes that could be passed on to CAUSE health issues. Color mutations like that are usually not wise to breed. It is still a mutation, and no, color is not always just color. It has hidden consequences.
When I say color is just color. I mean that in our breed, most colors (with the exception of blue) don't have any negative problems associated with them and thus ARE just color. If a color was affecting the dogs health then of course that shouldn't be bred, but most colors that occur naturally in the GSD breed have no health concerns with the exception of Blue which can cause CDA. Personally I'm not a fan of blues just for that reason, but it is possible to breed blues without worry of that problem.

In terms of Panda shepherds, the only concern with the color is when breeding 2 Pandas together (Its a dominant gene) which causes reabsorption of any embryo that gets double of the gene. That means no puppies are born with health problems, but you would get a smaller litter.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,744 Posts
When I say color is just color. I mean that in our breed, most colors (with the exception of blue) don't have any negative problems associated with them and thus ARE just color. If a color was affecting the dogs health then of course that shouldn't be bred, but most colors that occur naturally in the GSD breed have no health concerns with the exception of Blue which can cause CDA. Personally I'm not a fan of blues just for that reason, but it is possible to breed blues without worry of that problem.

In terms of Panda shepherds, the only concern with the color is when breeding 2 Pandas together (Its a dominant gene) which causes reabsorption of any embryo that gets double of the gene. That means no puppies are born with health problems, but you would get a smaller litter.
See, I haven't done any research on panda shepherds. How much do we really know about the genetics for them? What if there's a hidden problem that doesn't pop up until a few generations down?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
82 Posts
See, I haven't done any research on panda shepherds. How much do we really know about the genetics for them? What if there's a hidden problem that doesn't pop up until a few generations down?
We actually know a lot about them because UCDavis was involved as soon as the first one popped up in a litter (in 2000). Since then there of course have been GENERATIONS of panda's, in fact enough for some people to question making it its own breed (I don't support this personally).

Its a white spotting gene like any other, this one just so happened to be caused by a mutation in the sperm.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,014 Posts
You're right, its not common at all which I think is sad, but I do know people who are aspiring towards those goals and others who have sadly tried and were not welcomed (we're talking completely turned away by clubs and trainers) and thus got discouraged and gave up.

One has to remember that when looking at dogs who are used in areas such as IPO, most people look for the high drive working line. That means the usual people who are looking into the offstandards are pet owners, people who will never compete or only to small trials. So that means even if the dog DOES have what it takes, they'll never get a chance to prove it and thats why its not common to see any offstandard dogs in those venues.

Luckily as I said above, times are changing and alot of people who work with off standard colours are switching gears to breed higher drive dogs that they can actually title, as up until recently people were breeding more mellow "family friendly" dogs. And seeing breeders who are determined to make a big splash and become more active to show their dogs aren't any different.
Well see... you're underscoring my point.

I don't personally look at the GSD breed through one venue-exclusive lens.

In fact, I'm an oddball that prefers herding.

As I said above, if I saw a panda colored GSD that works livestock well or performs good quality breed appropriate work better than other GSDs, it would absolutely catch my eye.

Otherwise? Nope. I would see no reason to set an individual panda dog above a level with performance/work tested GSD's of other colors.
 
1 - 20 of 103 Posts
Top