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Discussion Starter #1
My new bundle of fur (9 wk old, 5 pound beagle pup) has had runny stools since I picked her up on Monday. I thought it was due to the drive home from No California. But it's getting worse, like soft pudding-y.

(Sigh. After Camper's SIBO, the beagle was supposed to be 'easy,' right?)

So...my Poop Dancing friends, what am I missing?

Fecal yesterday (Wednesday) morning was negative, but we dewormed her anyhow. Vet prescribed Interceptor (due to heartworm risk in CA), which I need to start asap. Will that affect her runny poop? She poops about 8x-10x day, so I would consider it diarrhea.

Giardia antigen was negative, but here's a factoid for all of you (especially Barb
). If the poop isn't really fresh (say, the dog gave it to you in the morning, but you didn't bring it to your vet until the late afternoon), your Giardia test results may not be 100% accurate. And my sample wasn't super fresh. So I'm bringing in another sample tomorrow because we're sending one out for Campylobacter and some other bacteria testing, so we're going to have the lab re-test for giardia (since money for the vet grows on trees around my house).

Not surprisingly, with runny poop, Mérida has a UTI (although my vet says these can be passed from the mother. Gosh, something else I never knew. What a learning experience this is!). We just confirmed this via testing.

Soooooo.... what other tests, if any, should I run?

Right now, she's eating Innova Puppy kibble

Ingredients
Turkey, Chicken, Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal, Barley, Brown Rice, Cottage Cheese, Tomatoes, Sunflower Oil, Chicken Fat, Natural Flavors, Flaxseed, Potatoes, Herring, Apples, Carrots, Alfalfa Sprouts, Egg, Garlic, Dicalcium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Chicory Root Extract, Direct-Fed Microbials, Vitamins/Minerals


And Canned Evo Turkey/chicken formula

Chicken, Turkey, Chicken Broth, Natural Flavors, Guar Gum, Seaweed Extract, Sea Salt, Vitamins/Minerals, Potassium Chloride, Sodium Phosphate, Inulin, Sunflower Oil, Sodium Ascorbate,Choline Chloride, Herring Oil, Beta Carotene

She was eating both of these at the breeders. I wasn't planning on leaving her on these, but with her issues, I guess I won't switch any time soon. Unless you see a reason to?

It's been awhile since I've had a pup, much less one this tiny. My brain is foggy.

Any thoughts about switching her to boiled chicken? Or chicken and rice (is brown rice ok since that's what's in the Innova?).
What about boiled ground turkey instead? If she's never eaten pumpkin before, will that upset things worse or will it still be soothing? She's drinking tons of water, so that's one thing that's ok. And she's feisty, happy, and has entirely too much energy. So other than needing to potty every 20 minutes and having puddin' poo, she's great.

We're looking forward to teaching her the Happy Poop Dance.

ALL your insights and suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Lori
 

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My first thought is coccidia. Common in puppies and doesn't always show up in a fecal exam. I like Innova but it can be rich - however, if that's what she was eating at the breeder's then I don't see an issue there. But you know more about food than I do anyway, so that one I leave firmly in your court.

If she were mine, I'd put her on albon and metronidazole and see if that clears it up. The metro will help with the diarrhea and hit giardia if she's got it and the albon will treat coccidia. Bit of a scattershot approach, but such is the fun of treating puppy runs.
 

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Paging Jean to the Health Issues Board....Jean to the Heath Issues Board Please....

LOL sorry I couldn't resist!!!
 

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Here Lori....just for you.....


Okay, first my opinion - Evo, even puppy brand, much too rich for a 5 pound puppy. I'd pull back to something else. Are you overfeeding? How many times a day? How much food? At 5 pounds, I'm thinking 1/4 - 1/3 cup 3/x day, but this is guessing off the top of my head.

Regarding the metronidazole...I am a HUGE fan of this medication but I am hesitant to use it on a 5 pound pup. I would shy away from all antibiotics at that age and weight, if possible. I know Tylan powder is an antibiotic but I would consider that to calm the digestive system.

The food he is on has cottage cheese and egg - could he have a dairy intolerance? The chickory root is a form of FOS (supplement good for SIBO) so it's a good ingredient. I wouldn't start adding yogurt - dairy problem???? Canned pumpkin used to make Gracie worse.

I'd go with fasting for 12-24 hours, nothing but licking ice cubes and chicken broth. Once the tummy settles, go with rice and chicken or boiled hamburger (rised off) for several meals. Then gradually introduce a new kibble. If you're willing to use a Science Diet product, get some of the canned i/d from the vet - that used to fix Gracie right up! For kibble, I'd probably go with California Natural or one of the Natural Balance varities for the pup. If stools start to form and they bring back runny poo, I'd give a trial with the Eukanuba Sensitive Stomach (very close to the Iams Low Residue veterinary diet, just a little higher in fat).

I agree could be coccidia. Also, your vet could have used a little scope to get out some poo to do a fresh giardia (that's what we do at work)....but maybe the little one was "empty" LOL.

This will resolve. Beagles, to my knowledge, aren't prone to digestive upsets like GSDs are. Stress of moving, new water, etc can cause this. Breathe. Relax. Give it a little more time. We're here to hold your hand and help dance the poop!!
 

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One of the Runny Poop Girls reporting for "doody!"

Are you feeding her as much/same times as the breeder? Wondering if she's eating more with you and if her schedule is off is a possibility in this situation? I know I just switched these guys and there was some soft poo because I was overfeeding a bit. Plus some dogs have that schedule thing.

But I would also wonder about coccidia.

Watch the sulfa drugs-there was a puppy who had a vision reaction-just had to mention that because it is in the neurotic's oath. (I must scare other people about drugs that are necessary for their dogs that there might be a wacko side effect, so help me Dog) I am not even sure if a sulfa drug was mentioned.

Of course she sounds so healthy otherwise-so that is good, very good. Sometimes UTIs can cause poops.

Sometimes with transition-new water even-you can just get diarrhea (one of the IMOM people calls it dire rears). With that I go simple with the food until they are better-but I always check with the vet first and know you do too.

Of course we need to see pictures of a 5# Beagle puppy. It will help us think.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Jean, here's your photos:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubb...true#Post723288

The breeder was feeding her 5x/day, and fed them as a group, so wasn't sure how much this particular puppy ate, esp since there are two big boys in the group. I have her down to 3x/day, which is hardly making her happy.
On the way home, I had her drinking bottled water (filtered municipal water, not spring water.) to avoid water issues. Could purer water cause problems? I think our water is less chlorinated than San Jose water.

I didn't like the Innova/Evo. But yeah, Jen, I'm feeding 1/4 cup 3x/day, with a small dollop of the canned Evo. My thought, like most of you, is that it's too rich. I was kind of thinking of Canidae ALS. Thoughts about that? Too many ingredients? I don't like the Natural Balances allergy formulas for pups because they're SO low in fat and protein. (I feed the fish formula now and then to Zamboni. I like NB foods, but wow, they're low in those nutrients)....

So I could get away with just fasting for 24 hour? 24 hours for a teeny one makes me queasy.

Ok. Dh just got back with the UTI Rx. Amoxicillin. Will that kill any of the bugs we've been talking about? Of course, I can go in Pupresq's list of the drugs that I want tomorrow (I'll just tell them that my internet friends said I must have them. I'm sure they'll understand. Actually, my vet will, which is kind of scary
She may not give them to me. But she'll understand.
). But I don't want to overmedicate either. I mean, the puppy. Me, I've overmedicate.

The neurotic's oath.
Where do I sign up? Or am I a charter member?

Thank you for your help. And your compassion during my angst.

Meanwhile, I'm off to make rice and boil turkey. Camper and Zamboni will be happy to have cooked turkey for breakfast.
 

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Amoxi isn't really going to help you with anything but certain bacteria.

I'm honestly not in favor of overmedicating dogs but we just see so very much diarrhea in our rescues and getting a good diagnosis seems to be very difficult so I do our first line attacks and if none of that works, then I get down and dirty with the diagnostics. We use both metro and albon on pretty young animals with no ill effects thus far though if others have had different experiences, I'm certainly open to learning more.

IMO metro is a nice drug because it's an antibiotic, an antidiarrheal, and an antiprotozoan all wrapped up in one. Not sure how that works but it's a godsend for us.

Albon takes a while to work because nothing actually kills coccidia, the drugs just prevent them from reproducing while the puppy's immune system (and intestines) recovers and takes over.

I also tend to assume that all puppies have worms regardless of the fecal results. Too many negative fecals followed by positive fecals. We do nemex for young pups but panacur or drontal plus for the older ones.

Given that your puppy came from a good breeder and not a mill or shelter, my money is on coccidia. It's common even in good operations because it's ubiquitous and hard to kill.
 

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(putting down my clipboard, adjusting nerdy oversized glasses, striding forward in my flapping white lab coat)


Lori, same issue with Grimm when I got him. Group feeding a litter makes it hard for us to guess how much she REALLY got per feeding. You could be feeding her much more than she was actually getting in the happy-Beagle-mealtime-free-for-all.

I can only say that she WILL be kay. Beagles have usually got tummies of IRON. Dead raccon toes? They scarf 'em! Dessicated mouse butts? OINK!! Beagles can handle it. This too, shall pass.... ouch, that pun hurt!

Seriously, the UTI may have come first, as Jean mentioned. Could this be a vaccine reaction? Grimm was vaccinated the exact day he was tossed on a plane to come to me. I also find Evo very rich, and for small dogs, especially so.

I am sending good thoughts and healing energy to Da Baby Beagle Butt! May solid poops soon astound you with their firm, bouncy brilliance!
 

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Well with group feeding of several pups no way to know for sure if your pup had good solid poops before you got her, so this food may be whats doing it.

Although I gotta agree with pupresq, sounds like coccidia....since everyone on this thread is prepared to talk poop...please describe the color and consistency for me. Is it grainy? Is it more brown or yellow in color, etc.?

If you aren't a fan of this food and was going to switch anyway, I'd say no more Innova, do a fast until tonight then a small amount of overcooked rice, ground beef (or chicken) and pumpkin. Then once back to normal slowly switch over to the kibble you were going to feed.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
The poop is dark but not tarry, in various stages from runny (but ends up sort of formed when it lands) to squirty, but not quite watery (but yet, impossible to clean up from the grass). And it has little crunchy things in it, probably one of the grains from the Innova, so those aren't getting digested at all. I'm thinking it's the barley. (but I hate barley. It is toxic to Camper. So I have an irrational bias there).

She fasted from 4pm last night to 9am this morning. I wanted to go a bit longer, but she kept running up to every plant/tree branch in the yard and trying to chew on it/eat it. Camper and I were busy trying to herd her, and it just was impossible (sheep don't move as fast as a 9 week old beagle. Why did I tell the breeder I wanted a dog for agility so they gave me the fastest one in the litter?
)

At about 4am, her system was clearly empty, but she still had the urge to poop. She kept trying, but nothing was coming out.

At 9am, I fed her 1/4 cup of 4x rinsed boiled ground turkey. (which she inhaled). I'll feed her again shortly before her vet appointment this afternoon. I have an appointment for 1:30pm today to discuss everything that you have suggested thus far.

Keep the ideas coming!

BTW, given how expensive rice has become, I'm glad I have a tiny dog!
 

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Well, my vet says that I have "very wise" friends. I reviewed all of your suggestions with her, and here's the plan:

Continue on small meals of boiled turkey and rice. (Jen, she says that Sci Diet I/D is basically the same as home cooked chicken or turkey and rice. It's just more convenient for those who don't want to/can't cook). I'm returning the bag of Innova (finally! A bag of food I DIDN'T open before I realized it wasn't good for my dog!

We discussed metro and albon. She is good with both suggestions, but thinks that both, along with the amoxy for the UTI may be too much for pup's little system. So we're starting the metro now, and will give it a few days. Then we'll be able to see if the albon is necessary as well.

My vet explained that UTIs don't actually "cause" diarrhea. What happens is that since the dog is bearing down so hard to pee all the time, stool comes out often, and it's soft. But it's not true "diarrhea," in the sense that there's something wrong from a GI perspective. Hmm. Yet something else I've learned. Now, UTIs can be caused by diarrhea. That much we DO know.

Oh, Val, you'll be glad to know that my vet also wants me to give probiotics since we're giving the two antibiotics. Hmmm. I think I have plenty of those hanging around the house.

So, that's the game plan.

And my vet was pleased that my friends are making me think from inside the box. I usually stand far outside the box looking outward, and since my dogs always have funky weird impossible-to-diagnose syndromes, my vets tend to think the same way with my dogs. She admitted that she kind of fell into this way of thinking too, that for almost anyone else's dog, she would have told them to feed the dog far less food and wait it out. But then again, she assumed I know better to overfeed. Kind of a hard balancing act.

I think it's a nice way of saying that she knows that I'm a knowledgeable dog owner, but neurotic.
 

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Quote:I'm a knowledgeable dog owner, but neurotic.
Which is exactly what we love about you!

I think the metro is a good plan. Even without the albon, it should help with the coccidia if she has it and it's a good anti-diarrheal.

Because of the way coccidia works (it's usually around but only sometimes causes problems sort of like demodex) I've heard of lots of cases where healthy puppies with good poops developed diarrhea shortly after a long transport. Like the journey and changes stress them to a point where the coccidia blooms and diarrhea ensues. Hopefully between the meds and just getting settled everything she will be all better in no time. Thankfully, Beagles aren't like GSDs when it comes to bizarre ailments.
 

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3K9Mom, Probioitics must, do not give at the same time as the Antibioitic. Usually ABX are 12 hours apart, hit the 6 hour mark inbetween the 12 hours.

I like the fact that your Vet is thinking about not overloading the pups poor system.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Originally Posted By: pupresq
Quote:I'm a knowledgeable dog owner, but neurotic.
Which is exactly what we love about you!
Thank you.


Ok. We were gone this week, camping. So I've returned to file my report:

Poop is excellent.


Rice isn't being digested, much if at all, but the poor kid appears to be starving ALL the time (she's a beagle, after all), so the rice is a good filler.

I'll start to incorporate boiled chicken in a few days. Assuming she can tolerate that, I'll add in a bit of California Natural chicken kibble. I love the suggestions about keeping ingredients minimal.

You know, you guys are the best. Truly the best.


Now, what do you suggest for my broken toe? You know, the one I stubbed pottying a puppy in the middle of the night, while attempting to manage a crazy 2 y/o GSD at the same time? And Zamboni thought she'd check out the critter scent at the same time....


(Actually, Dh -- the Eagle Scout -- splinted the toe with the skinny part of a clothes pin that he cut down with his machete, then buddy-wrapped it to the next toe over. The toe will survive. Me? Not so sure!
)
 

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Over cook the rice, almost use double the amount of water. That should help make it more digestible. IMHO you could start with some cooked chicken now, just start with a small amount.

Sorry about your toe, good thing DH - the Eagle Scount knew what to do.
 

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Does this mean I have been dethroned as the Poop Queen since I wasn't here?
 

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Darling pup!
Sorry 'bout the toe!
 
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