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The sire won't be 2 until October. He would have not even been 17 months old when this litter was conceived.

These are mostly German working lines with some Belgian lines. The dog should have good drive for sport. A lot depends on what the parents are like too.
 

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Originally Posted By: lhczth
These are mostly German working lines with some Belgian lines. The dog should have good drive for sport. A lot depends on what the parents are like too.
Agree. Whether these bloodlines would be suitable for you depends on what sort of temperament you're looking for and what your plans are for the pup.

However I see several red flags that would make me cautious about this breeding.

Sire is very young, not yet mature himself (and it's always a good idea to allow a dog to fully mature to adulthood so you can see the final product before making breeding decisions).

Neither parent is OFAed. The sire isn't even old enough for OFA.

I would also like to see some sort of titles on the parents before they are bred.
 

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i talked to they guy last night for about a hr. He said that the mom is OFA and came back good and they dad had prelim and came back normal. The dad being so young has me weary. He told me he had all the paperwork if i wanted to see it. Now i know prelim isnt the real thing and like i said im kinda on the fence about that.

As far as what i want from a pup. pretty much good temperment. stable nevers confidence strong and med. drive as i dont think i will be doing the SchH competivly just quite yet.

As far a titling goes. They dont have any sport titles but the mom is a certified bomb dog and they dad was just sold to a baltimore PD. But as far as bloodlines go is this a good balance between the two? what do u think their weaknesses would be? stuff like that.

Im not commiting to this guy quite yet i just want opinions on these 2 dogs. Thanks everyone!
 

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Originally Posted By: jdp2134i talked to they guy last night for about a hr. He said that the mom is OFA and came back good
If that were true, she would be listed on the OFA database. But she is not.

OFA Database

I suppose it is possible that OFA made a mistake and somehow neglected to post a dog on their database, but rather doubtful. I'd be highly suspicious of the breeder's claims....
 

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oops never mind......

Can you share who the breeder is? Sometimes that is very important in understanding why something has been done the way it has been.

Cherri
 

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Yep, red flags for sure. No titles on the bottom on the mother or her parents either.
 

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Red flag for me too. Sire is way to young and immature. Just because he was sold to PD does not me is will BE a police dog, and does not make him a proven producer. No OFA on sire another red flag. I know titles don't mean everything to everyone but it is a big plus.

Dam has no progeny listed on PDB. Has she had litters before if so what are they like. Not enough hip cert. in the pedigree to make me satisfied.

Getting a pup is a gamble no matter where and from what dogs but to have all that is needed for breeding makes it's a bit more satisfying for breeder and buyer.
There are ALOT of nice litters out there, and to choose from the above is a BIG BIG gamble IMO.
 

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No red flags for me. If the dog is sound at 20 month, I haven't seen cases of genetics altering in the next four months. If the dog is a viable candidate for a police dog he is probably of stronger temperament than 90% of the other dogs bred in this country. I can live with those odds. If the prelim was normal at a reasonable age,it would be rare for the dog to turn dyplastic to the point of not being breed worthy in my experience. The bloodlines are very very strong, so other than formality reasons I see NO functional reasons that this litter would have a higher percent of good or bad than any other good breeding...JMO
 

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Thanks cliff. I went to look at MY puppy yesterday and talked with the breeder. He seemed very knowledgeable in the pedigrees and what each dog (sire and dam) was bringing to the table and what weakness that they would balance each other on that and breeder support so i went ahead and put a deposit down. Im very excited.
 

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Did you ask him about the fact that NOTHING about the parents hip ratings shows up on the OFA site?
 

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Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1No red flags for me. If the dog is sound at 20 month, I haven't seen cases of genetics altering in the next four months. If the dog is a viable candidate for a police dog he is probably of stronger temperament than 90% of the other dogs bred in this country. I can live with those odds. If the prelim was normal at a reasonable age,it would be rare for the dog to turn dyplastic to the point of not being breed worthy in my experience. The bloodlines are very very strong, so other than formality reasons I see NO functional reasons that this litter would have a higher percent of good or bad than any other good breeding...JMO
Just because the dog is a candidate for police work does not mean is will pass all the tests needed to become a police dog. Many of potential k9 dogs have been washed out at the end of a program.
Also any dog can develop HD even after they have been prelimed.

Sorry to hijack the thread but wanted to make this comment.

Good luck with your new pup.
 

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If the female is a certified bomb dog, why would she need a sport title? Isn't the purpose of a title, aside from proving breedworthiness, to prove the dog has the ability to work? If a dog is doing the actual work that a title supposedly says they have the potential to perform, I'd think that surpasses the title. How many dogs in law enforcement or military applications are titled? They are probably few and far between, because a green dog purchased and trained for a specific application isn't going to have the time for sport titles.

I also think that if a police agency purchased the sire on the pretense that he has what they are looking for in a K9, they must feel he's got a good chance to succeed. Why would they spend the money if they thought he'd fail? There are plenty of other dogs out there to choose from, so they must have seen something they liked about this one. Even if the dog is washed out at some point, the reasons for the wash out might be beyond what would preclude the dog from getting some kind of sport title.

I do agree on the hips, but I think some people have an elitist attitude when it comes to titling. To me, if a dog is actually doing the work that a title suggests they might be able to do, then they don't need the title. There are far too many dogs that get titles on their home field, with the same trainers and decoys that they see every session, who are not challenged the way a working dog is challenged. Is a title earned that way somehow better than a dog actually doing the job our dogs were meant to perform?
 

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Aren't people also forgetting about "a" stamps here? Many people that breed German lines use the "a" stamp and not OFA. The "a" stamp can be received at 12mths of age.

Cherri
 

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Originally Posted By: jdp2134Thanks cliff. I went to look at MY puppy yesterday and talked with the breeder. He seemed very knowledgeable in the pedigrees and what each dog (sire and dam) was bringing to the table and what weakness that they would balance each other on that and breeder support so i went ahead and put a deposit down. Im very excited.
Congrats!
When will the little guy be coming home? Make sure you share pictures!


Cherri
 

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Discussion Starter #16
The breeder got the prelims done but didnt send in the the x rays to OFA. The parents and grand/great grandparents that the sire and dam come from have a good history of hips in the pedigree. As far as a hip guarentee that most breeders give is good and everything but look at it like this. Some guarentees says they only apply to crippling h/d. others, and you guys are very serious about waiting 2 yrs until you know for sure that the hips are good, well what if you sell a dog to someone and after 2 yrs they have bonded with that dog and come to find out that you sold them a pup w/ h/d do you really think that they are gonna give that dog back to the breeder? maybe for hardcore sport people but my dog is a pet first and if i want to do sports or anything then i want that option. And for me if i had a hip guarentee and found out my dog had w/e type of h/d there is no way i would give it back after 2 yrs.

Im not attacking anyone on here about their OPINIONS but i know as far as me and what the breeder is offering such as very strong bloodlines that have a good history and the fact im not going to be doing hardcore SchH well then its good enough for me. I do thank everyone for their opinions and there is no hard feelings on this end
 

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I wanted to add since i was in a little bit of a rush when i posted this that as far as history goes that is said in my last post has mainly to do with the hips. As you can see for yourself they working ethic is there. And i just wanted to clarify i respect everyone opinions on here considering i have learned a lot about this breed from the people posted in my thread and im sure i have learned just the begining of bloodlines/pedigrees but i just wanted to point out what I was looking for in a pup and put a different outlook on the whole hip guarentee situation and what i felt about the whole thing. And i think the breeder understood what i wanted in terms of drive and things like that so im happy about my decision

Cherri i will be posting pictures. i cant wait to bring him home in a couple of weeks
 

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I know Ciwan and he is very very high drive and looking at the rest of the pedigree, I am not sure you will get what you are looking for. You may get a few characteristics you are not looking for.

Lee
 

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Without these two dogs being trained to see what they are like in character under pressure and how they mature - the male is way too young to assess fully!!! - how can anyone say what characteristics they possess and are therefore more likely to pass on??? There is alot of aggression in the lines behind both parents, and some potential unclearness in drive......Breeding untitled dogs for pets from show lines is something that I can shrug off a bit more, but when you start with these high powered lines and don't fully understand them by working them on the field, including strange fields, or test them or prove them, you are just playing genetic russian roulette. The pedigree can tell you what is possible genetically, but you still have to understand what the parents are showing from that pedigree and you can't do that with young dogs like this who are not working and trialing under pressure.

Lee
 
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