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too much inconsistency in type to make any kinds of judgement call... pet sure....working? DDR/pet/WL with tail female out uncredentialed and sires dam lines with some AKC stuff/BH.....who knows...

I look for complementary and compensatory lines/abilities.....no way to tell on this....

Might be fine to do some entry level training...but with the questions on the sires dam lines....but the dam being half DDR and 3 gens of nothing credentialed in her dam lines it is a crap shoot...

I did not go look up OFAs....I would do that for sure before making a commitment (offa.org)

Lee
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thank you Lee. I respect your honesty. Breeder says the bitch is highly independent/challenging to train and does not thrive in a show/sport setting. All health testing/OFA checks out and the pups from this breeding are developing nicely. It may be repeated and I really like this bitch. The breeder backs her dogs 100%, is heavy into health testing and does a variety of things with them, outside of the traditional. It is worth mentioning that she is relatively new and learning herself, so a difficult dog may be outside of her ability at this point.
My plans for a pup derailed due to life but I keep coming back to this one bitch.
I do have to say that as breeders go, she may be doing some stuff a bit backward but she is doing an awful lot right.
 

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Sabi (hello btw, long time not speak!), lines and pedigree aside, these are GSDs. Even a "pet type" GSD banks the odds of being a very trainable companion animal that anyone but the most serious working prospector stands to enjoy.

Besides that, I just like Granville. She may be up-and-coming, and this particular bitch may not have all the bells and whistles, but as a kennel I can totally get behind them and consider what they are doing worth supporting. I know of no other breeder doing health testing as comprehensive, and knowing your history I can completely understand why that would be of importance to you, as it is to many. Many of her dogs don't have high level titles, but she DOES work them, which is more than most can say.
 

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Is this pup from Granville? My friend has a dog from them. Very nice dog, good drive, social, stable. When she told me about him I looked at the website and was underwhelmed, but her boy and his litter mate are doing pretty great things now. So, I guess it's all in what you produce.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Ha! I would know that dog anywhere. I hope all is well with you and the boys.

I keep looking for another pup, and I keep circling back, to Kashmir. I do like the breeder and I do believe she deserves praise for her efforts. But I really, really like this bitch. So much so that I considered offering to buy her a while back. Sadly an adult bitch is a bad idea. It seems I am not destined to have a pup anytime soon.
 

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All is well, and I hope the same for your crew :)

Liking the bitch that much is reason enough to stay in contact. For what you want, I can't imagine a breeding like this wouldn't produce it. Being overly concerned with complementary pedigrees and which lines blend well/etc is all well and good for the serious competitor or a breeder. For a nice working pet? Who could look at Granville and not appreciate what they are striving for, even if they are just starting out.
 

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Is this pup from Granville? My friend has a dog from them. Very nice dog, good drive, social, stable. When she told me about him I looked at the website and was underwhelmed, but her boy and his litter mate are doing pretty great things now. So, I guess it's all in what you produce.
Is he a Berlin pup? For a dog with no real titles, he is proving to be quite the producer. Working PD, SAR, service dogs, detection.
Yes it's a Granville litter, planned anyway.
 

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Thank you Lee. I respect your honesty. Breeder says the bitch is highly independent/challenging to train and does not thrive in a show/sport setting. All health testing/OFA checks out and the pups from this breeding are developing nicely. It may be repeated and I really like this bitch. The breeder backs her dogs 100%, is heavy into health testing and does a variety of things with them, outside of the traditional. It is worth mentioning that she is relatively new and learning herself, so a difficult dog may be outside of her ability at this point.
My plans for a pup derailed due to life but I keep coming back to this one bitch.
I do have to say that as breeders go, she may be doing some stuff a bit backward but she is doing an awful lot right.

The first highlighted comment would make me be very cautious.....I don't like dogs like this...I like dogs who WANT to work with you. Perhaps the male counteracts this characteristic, but breeders need to know the lines, how to combine them etc....and with the second comment, I would not have alot of confidence.

Lee
 

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why would a female that "Breeder says the bitch is highly independent/challenging to train and does not thrive in a show/sport setting" be of interest , and why would a breeder hoping to produce some solid dogs breed a female that fits this description.
Does not sound like something that you would want in a pet home which generally are not prepared for a "challenge to train" and not something you would want for competition where the dog "does not thrive" , and not for real work either because results will likely be unreliable.
No work ethic?
Independent .
Why when you " want an active pet with the ability to be trained as a working dog. " and the breeder has given information which is contrary to your ideal , do you "really, really like this bitch".
 

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why would a female that "Breeder says the bitch is highly independent/challenging to train and does not thrive in a show/sport setting" be of interest , and why would a breeder hoping to produce some solid dogs breed a female that fits this description.
Does not sound like something that you would want in a pet home which generally are not prepared for a "challenge to train" and not something you would want for competition where the dog "does not thrive" , and not for real work either because results will likely be unreliable.
No work ethic?
Independent .
Why when you " want an active pet with the ability to be trained as a working dog. " and the breeder has given information which is contrary to your ideal , do you "really, really like this bitch".
Do you want my honest answer?

Because I have spent my entire 43 years on this planet close to horses, dogs and other creatures. In my time with horses I learned to look beyond the looks, beyond the breeding and trust what I read in the eyes. Later I learned that sometimes the same is true of dogs. Because the first time I saw her I believe my exact words were 'I'm not nuts about the bitch', then I saw her eyes and watched her move.
I like this breeder for her health testing and absolutely unwavering support, but I firmly believe that in this case she is the wrong handler for this bitch. I believe that the bond is weak and the bitch knows it, but I refuse to knock the breeder for not bailing on a dog she has love and raised from a pup.
 

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I want to tell you both that I am listening and you are raising good and valid points that I need to consider. I knew I was going to take some knocks on this one. I want a good dog, and I love where Granville is heading. But I am a reasonable person and certainly no child, nor am I new to dogs. Just to ones who's parents I can find.
I just don't want the breeder knocked unfairly.
 

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Not to derail the thread, but I think sometimes people get so focused on pedigree that they forget to see what's actually being produced.

Sometimes we have to look beneath the lineage and see what's happening in the actual program.

The two dogs from this breeder I know are exceptional dogs. Enough so that I would consider them in the future.

The breeder I got my male, Ike, from would be ripped to shreds on this board. But if you look at their program, they have consistently produced LE, SAR, SchH ,obedience and agility competitive dogs. If they were still breeding, it's where I would have gone.

Look at the success of the program and don't hyper focus on 4 generations back. See the big picture.

I have never met or talked to this breeder. So I have no glove in this fight. I just hate to see someone's program, in it's beginning stage, be ripped without the benefit if actually knowing what they are producing.

Who here has not had a dog that would have achieved more in different hands?
 

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what was offered was pedigree....

I never looked up or at the website until just now.....and seriously am scratching my head over it....no rhyme or reason to the collection of dogs

what HAS been produced? UKC championships are not a big big deal in the working GSD world....normal health testing is something ALL good breeders do....testing for things not a normal problem in a GSD???? Does not impress someone who knows these things are not a normal issue. Liking a dog is fine...buying a couple dogs and breeding them because you bought them ???? Doing something with the dog - having it evaluated if not titled by people who are respected in the breed....using a dog for stud with a STAR puppy and CGC and HIC as accomplishments? and with a pedigree with big holes in it?????

Just a big crap shoot ..... for the breeders and buyers

Lee
 

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" 'I'm not nuts about the bitch', then I saw her eyes and watched her move. " that is superficial

"so a difficult dog may be outside of her ability at this point. " all the more reason not to breed with a difficult , challenging dog to train . Her puppy owners may be faced with similar types and she is in no position then to offer them advice or guidance.

WHY is this dog challenging and difficult to train . No motivation , fear / anxiety , lack of focus , submissive , obviously does not thrive in a show/sport setting, meaning what she shuts down , goes into avoidance, does she become handler hard and aggressive?

Sorry , who is Berlin?
 

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" 'I'm not nuts about the bitch', then I saw her eyes and watched her move. " that is superficial

"so a difficult dog may be outside of her ability at this point. " all the more reason not to breed with a difficult , challenging dog to train . Her puppy owners may be faced with similar types and she is in no position then to offer them advice or guidance.

WHY is this dog challenging and difficult to train . No motivation , fear / anxiety , lack of focus , submissive , obviously does not thrive in a show/sport setting, meaning what she shuts down , goes into avoidance, does she become handler hard and aggressive?

Sorry , who is Berlin?
My mistake, it was another bitch that she said did not thrive in a show setting. She has since been spayed and placed in a pet home
Says she is highly independent, and confident in all situations. Aloof with strangers and social with family and friends. If I had 8 dogs to title I would be spending less time with the difficult one as well. Tracking ability, herding ability, lure coursing it would seem to me she enjoys activities where she has more independence and less structure, I can relate. Doesn't mean she can't do it, means she has an owner who wants her to be happy. And the pups from this breeding are by all reports confident, social pups who are thriving and willing to learn.
I had a patrol dog once who was amazing on patrol but clearly disliked crowd control. He never failed to do his job but was plainly unhappy about it. My first patrol dog thought nothing of bitting his handler if you made a mistake. My darling Sabi would work all day, ask her to perform some task she deemed beneath her and she would raise an eyebrow and snort before walking away.

And no, eyes are not superficial. They will tell you everything you need to know and then some. And by movement I was referring to the confidence and arrogance? under the motion.
 

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what was offered was pedigree....

I never looked up or at the website until just now.....and seriously am scratching my head over it....no rhyme or reason to the collection of dogs

what HAS been produced? UKC championships are not a big big deal in the working GSD world....normal health testing is something ALL good breeders do....testing for things not a normal problem in a GSD???? Does not impress someone who knows these things are not a normal issue. Liking a dog is fine...buying a couple dogs and breeding them because you bought them ???? Doing something with the dog - having it evaluated if not titled by people who are respected in the breed....using a dog for stud with a STAR puppy and CGC and HIC as accomplishments? and with a pedigree with big holes in it?????

Just a big crap shoot ..... for the breeders and buyers

Lee
Unimpressive... until your own pet comes down with one of these issues, and you are stuck having to deal with it.

Exactly how many of your breeding dogs have you tested for DM wolfstraum?

Maybe its not a serious issue to you. I can sure as heck tell you its a serious issue to some :)
 
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