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Discussion Starter #1
Sorry guys with all my questions! Trying to make good decisions, and it requires me to ask lots of questions and input from experienced GSD handlers.

Was recommended this breeder from someone. He has some pups available at 10 weeks and some more coming from this litter... The mom and dad look very respectable, but what do I know.

Sire - V Kosmo vom Heinrichplatz
Dam - V Yessica Von Modithor
 

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Those are West German Showlines. There are some excellent dogs in the pedigrees but I don’t know anything about either of those kennels.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Those are West German Showlines. There are some excellent dogs in the pedigrees but I don’t know anything about either of those kennels.
Aren't those working lines? IPO3 and IPO1?

How can you tell. Whether it's show line or working line? (or even west/east/Czech) so I know.

He told me they are from a working line breed?

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yes, west German Show lines .

titles do not a line make . Are they as you say "very respectable"? That is determined by
what is the temperament like, are they decently long lived, healthy , low risk orthopedic problems?

then there are questions about the breeder . Why is there a litter of 10 week olds , with more coming?
Are they a high frequency breeder ? Are they particular about where their dogs go or are they "get em outta here"

are there guarantees? Do they honor their guarantee?

how much knowledge , interest and support to they offer?
 

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It was actually american showlines OP said he didn't want. OP, I wouldn't rule out west german showlines if I were you.

Just...gotta find the right dog from the right breeder. Lots of people very happy with their West German Showlines. They will always be the black and red saddle dogs you see in this pedigree, where working lines will tend to have more sables, bicolor and blacks
 

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I would suggest you take a look at the dogs it will be what helps you make the decision. I have pets asl and wgsl who can certainly earn some titles and are highly functionable. I had a dog capable of “bringing home a paycheck” he was especially calm quiet dog but incredibly serious. All different and all fit into our lives at the time. It is lots of work and due diligence to pick up the right pup your family but exciting all the same and incredibly worth it.
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
ok so I made a mistake. The mothers are wrong. That was previous litter

6 week pups' mother - Ramira Vom Valtenber

10 week pup's mother - Rosel Von Grob-Zunder

These all look like high end well trained dogs?

I don't have a problem with German showline. I assume they are still have their protection personalities, and good temperament. It was the american showlines I wasn't interested in.

Breeder is Vom Kirsys

He has good reviews on google, but not much here. He has a very weird contract and requires you to use certain food etc. but again good reivews from what I can tell. Only found 2 negative reviews on him.
 

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I don’t want to open a debate, so I will say from my own personal experience, WGSLs are easier than WLs, until you have experience with both. Now that I have successfully trained a WL, they are equally challenging and rewarding. Since there are very young children in the home, temperament is extremely important.

This is also very important. If you visit a kennel and the parents are extremely calm and well trained, keep in mind that GSDs tend to settle after 3 years. So if the parents are 3 or older, which they should be, you are seeing mature dogs handled by an experienced owner. Ideally, you would want to see older puppies and young adult dogs from the same lines.
 

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OP you may wnat to have a second look at the American "show" lines .

titles do not seem to have the same quality across the board , evident in youtubes
of even the Sieger show trials , the highest levels , at the annual German show ,
compared with the youtube performances of the BSP -- the working annual trials.

the BSP is open to all , not exclusive to working lines -

what ever division of the breed you can find a member that will make a good companion
just make sure that your dog has a good nerve base

when you add aggression , defence , "bite work" required to get those titles you want to make
sure that the dog is balanced and confident

good luck
 

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ok so I made a mistake. The mothers are wrong. That was previous litter

6 week pups' mother - Ramira Vom Valtenber

10 week pup's mother - Rosel Von Grob-Zunder

These all look like high end well trained dogs?

I don't have a problem with German showline. I assume they are still have their protection personalities, and good temperament. It was the american showlines I wasn't interested in.

Breeder is Vom Kirsys

He has good reviews on google, but not much here. He has a very weird contract and requires you to use certain food etc. but again good reivews from what I can tell. Only found 2 negative reviews on him.
Just my personal opinion, I would never buy a dog from someone who required that I feed a specific food or supplements or any of that. But I would also never buy from a breeder that required spay/neuter.
I know nothing about this breeder or the dogs in question so take my opinion for what it's worth. In fact I know very little about anything, but to my mind clauses like that are either admitting a deficiency in the dogs or giving them an out should you try and claim anything.
 

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These all look like high end well trained dogs?

I don't have a problem with German showline. I assume they are still have their protection personalities, and good temperament. It was the american showlines I wasn't interested in.
I own working line dogs but do have a West German show line. They are all good dogs.

I just would like to point out that as a rule of thumb, show line breeders tend to breed for conformation as a priority, where working line breeders prioritize temperament. It is something to keep in mind in your search.
 
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Any breeder including working line can have their priorities unblalnced and leaning to one side. So again important to find that breeder that you trust and is reputable and meet their dogs.
 

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Just don't expect the same "...they still have their protection personalities, and good temperament" from both lines of GSDs. It is just simply not the that way for most.
 

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First off - they are definitely showlines as stated by every one else....

Showlines are 99.999 % always tan/red/brown with a black saddle....there are some black and tan working lines, but only a small percentage.


The one thing that does concern me is that the sire is line bred on Nero Nobachtal. This dog was the center of a HUGE controversy within the SV a few years back. He had elbow surgery - many stories why - but his papers were pulled and there were some consequential actions taken to limit breeding from already registered progeny - maybe even papers pulled on many. There were some in other countries that were not affected, thus the very strong success of Teejay Wilhendorf....who was a 4x VA dog in the US in WDA/NASS...

I would do some research on previous pups from the sire and want to be sure he was producing passing hips and elbows....the one female had alot of fast normals....

IMO - there is a higher incidence of less than good hips in showlines due to heavy line breeding and backmassing on dogs who were poor hip producers....

As far as temperament and "protection ability"??? The priority of showline breeding, esp in the SV world is STRUCTURE (often called "anatomy").....not working ability.....I would not count on any working or natural guarding instincts - some do, some don't, have this....hard to say, it is a random quality from my observations.

Never heard of the kennel - all dogs look to have been imported with credentials in place......to me, personally - that is a bit of a red flag.....commercial breeder - do they actually have any experience and knowledge of the breed ?? do they have youngsters that they are training to title so they can add them to their breeding program or is it just a business to sell puppies??


Lee
 

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Even at the highest level (sieger show in Germany) many of the show line dogs fail their protection tests, so it is unwise to assume a show line dog will be a good protector of the home.

I would ask to see the parents, to get an idea of their temperaments. Ask the breeder for specifics: do they bark at strangers? How do they react to a visitor coming into their kennel or the house? Are the ever IN the house, or are they strictly kennel dogs? (Warning red flag: means a commercial breeder, who is in it for the money, and likely does not have a good idea of what his dogs bring to the table in terms of temperament and working ability.)
 

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Well, you guys can't say I didn't do my research...

I recently discovered this breeder was sued by another breeder in miami for fraud and civil theft of multiple german shepherds. I won't share the docket from the courts (which is publicly available) because it has their names etc and I don't want that to go on public forums. If you are curious/interested, you can PM me and I will show ya. Long story short, this breeder lost the case and the plaintiff was awarded just about 500K worth of damages. He then was hit with threatening/tampering witness and key evidence regarding the case. Pretty crazy.... unfortunately you don't just get cash and you have to put lien on home etc etc. It's a complicated process

That being said, no matter how good the dogs are, I won't be getting them from him. lol
 

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You are finding out choosing the right dog is not quick or easy. Since you have young children, you don’t have room for mistakes. That is why we are all telling you to research well and take your time. You can find everything you want but it may take a while. For now, what seems most important to me along with health would be a dog that will thrive with children. When I was involved rescue the two main reasons people gave up well bred dogs were lack of time to exercise and train properly, and the dog being too much for their children.
 

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Well, you guys can't say I didn't do my research...

I recently discovered this breeder was sued by another breeder in miami for fraud and civil theft of multiple german shepherds. I won't share the docket from the courts (which is publicly available) because it has their names etc and I don't want that to go on public forums. If you are curious/interested, you can PM me and I will show ya. Long story short, this breeder lost the case and the plaintiff was awarded just about 500K worth of damages. He then was hit with threatening/tampering witness and key evidence regarding the case. Pretty crazy.... unfortunately you don't just get cash and you have to put lien on home etc etc. It's a complicated process

That being said, no matter how good the dogs are, I won't be getting them from him. lol
I was going to post that. This person was a partner with the person I told you about. Things went bad. Lino is the one who is very active around the world at shows and importing pups
 
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