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Discussion Starter #1
today, and I am so excited! I worked on correcting Kodee's recall, and let me tell you, it worked!!! He was shadowing me (like Ed Frawley mentioned in his E-Collar DVD) by the end of the 1st short session, but when I called, he came 100% of the time, even under a couple of pretty good distractions. He was headed towards his Flying Squirrel laying on the ground, and when I called, he turned right around, and looked back over his shoulder longingly at his squirrel a couple of times, but he never broke stride heading towards me. THAT is huge! His flying Squirrel toy is a pretty good (moderate) distraction for him, as he lives to play w/that thing!

I just had to give my little "testimonial." I am so excited! I think this e-collar training is a priceless training tool, as is the collar, of course.
 

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What is this shadowing thing that Frawley discusses? I don't have the DVD.
Can you explain a lil?

And.. congratulations to you and Kodee on a super recall!!
 

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Yes, please explain shadowing as I do not own the dvd either.

I wonder if it is a technique we use at training class for the first lesson. We use a long line (15-30 foot). We then have the dog follow us via the long line or let the dog wonder off and then using the line and low level stim, and call the dog back. If the dog gets confused about what we want, we just "reel" it in using the long line to gently guide the dog back to us. Is that what he is doing with the "shadowing"?
 

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I don't have the DVD, but I guess Kodeegirl means what happens when you are teaching the recall (not only with the e-collar), there is a moment in wich the dog refuse to leave your side, as he doesn't see the point if are going to be calling him over and over. Then you just end the session and leave the lesson for the next one.
 

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Originally Posted By: LicanAntaithere is a moment in wich the dog refuse to leave your side, as he doesn't see the point if are going to be calling him over and over.
Its not about the dog not seeing the point, but the dog does not understand the meaning of the stimulus. Dogs associate a negative stimulus initially by location and not always a certain behavior. Maybe in his mind is that "I don't feel that weird buzzing on my neck when I am next to my owner" It is anxiety and avoidance and fear of a painful stimulus that he is not clear about. Hopefully once it is clear and your dog can handle the stim, it will fade.

I like Lou Castle's approach better instead of Frawley's, however for a pet dog, no e-collar. Train smarter not harder.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
The shadowing is where they stay close to you/follow you when you first begin training the recall w/e-collar. After a while, he'll figure out that he doesn't have to stay next to me 100% of the time, (he'll realize that he only gets that little sting if I recall him and him and he ignores me). Once he gets that, he won't shadow anymore, for lack of a better explanation.

I did read about Lou Castle's met hod, but I don't agree with it. I don't feel like it's fair to my dog to stim him unless it's a consequence of his ignoring a command I've already taught him. I am not teaching commands with the e-collar, I'm just using it to correct him for ignoring commands that he knows. He knows what "come" means, and if there's something he's interested in checking out, he ignores me rather than coming when called. The e-collar is to correct for that.

Lou Castle stims a dog while giving a command (if I remember correctly), and I think this is totally unfair to the dog. Why stim him when he hasn't even had a chance to obey you yet?

I think using an e-collar for a pet is fine, as long as it's used correctly. I use the lowest level stim that gets a little reaction from Kodee, and he only gets stimulated for direct disobedience. NOT if he doesn't understand what I'm asking him.

Anyway, I know the Ed Frawley vs. Lou Castle is a volatile topic (I did a lot of reading online before I began using the e-collar). I just wanted to post that the e-collar worked great during our first session.
I used to be totally against them, until I learned how to use them, now I am a believer. If used properly, I think they're awesome training tools.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I bought a Dogtra 1900NCP. I love it. I took Kodee back out this evening to work a little more with it, and we worked on proofing his "sits" and "downs" under distraction. He did really well. We played frisbee off and on throughout the session. Also worked on recall some more (I don't think the recall can ever be proofed enough, IMO). Hardly have to use the stim button - if he doesn't comply w/a command, when I say "no" (verbal correction), he complies, before he gets a stim. Finally understands that "no" means "no." He had a great time, as he already is getting more freedom (he's still on a long line, but I'm letting him get a little more distance to run, as his recall is so much better already).

I only use the "nick" button, haven't used "constant", and don't plan to. I also tested it on myself - level 50 is getting uncomfortable to me, but Kodee is only getting level 27 when needed. 23 works in the house (no distractions).
 

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Sounds like you are approaching the tool with a good foundation. Good Luck. I The part I always remind myself, whatever the "correction" is the least amount of stimulus required to produce the result. It is very clear to the dog and removes the emotional factor that travels down the leash. I have used it with good results thus far, mostly during protection training in SchH and cleaning up obedience. I have not used it for teaching phase like Lou Castle, but I agree with some aspects of his method.
GoodLuck with Kodee
 

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Originally Posted By: KodeeGirlThe shadowing is where they stay close to you/follow you when you first begin training the recall w/e-collar. After a while, he'll figure out that he doesn't have to stay next to me 100% of the time, (he'll realize that he only gets that little sting if I recall him and him and he ignores me). Once he gets that, he won't shadow anymore, for lack of a better explanation.

I did read about Lou Castle's met hod, but I don't agree with it. I don't feel like it's fair to my dog to stim him unless it's a consequence of his ignoring a command I've already taught him. I am not teaching commands with the e-collar, I'm just using it to correct him for ignoring commands that he knows. He knows what "come" means, and if there's something he's interested in checking out, he ignores me rather than coming when called. The e-collar is to correct for that.

Lou Castle stims a dog while giving a command (if I remember correctly), and I think this is totally unfair to the dog. Why stim him when he hasn't even had a chance to obey you yet?

I think using an e-collar for a pet is fine, as long as it's used correctly. I use the lowest level stim that gets a little reaction from Kodee, and he only gets stimulated for direct disobedience. NOT if he doesn't understand what I'm asking him.

Anyway, I know the Ed Frawley vs. Lou Castle is a volatile topic (I did a lot of reading online before I began using the e-collar). I just wanted to post that the e-collar worked great during our first session.
I used to be totally against them, until I learned how to use them, now I am a believer. If used properly, I think they're awesome training tools.
If your using the e-collar as a method of punishment then your NOT using it correctly.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Originally Posted By: Tracie
If your using the e-collar as a method of punishment then your NOT using it correctly.
I disagree. There are different methods of using an e-collar in training, I just happen to believe that giving the dog a stimulation while I'm giving the command to him (a la Lou Castle's method) is totally unfair to the dog. If he disobeys a command that he knows, he gets a light stimulation as a consequence. Before I do even that, I tell him "no" as a verbal warning to obey. If he still ignores me, then he gets a stim (light - not a big shock). I've stimulated myself w/twice the level that I use on Kodee, so I know what it feels like.

Just b/c you disagree with the training method doesn't make it incorrect.
 

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Originally Posted By: KodeeGirl
Originally Posted By: Tracie
If your using the e-collar as a method of punishment then your NOT using it correctly.
I disagree. There are different methods of using an e-collar in training, I just happen to believe that giving the dog a stimulation while I'm giving the command to him (a la Lou Castle's method) is totally unfair to the dog. If he disobeys a command that he knows, he gets a light stimulation as a consequence. Before I do even that, I tell him "no" as a verbal warning to obey. If he still ignores me, then he gets a stim (light - not a big shock). I've stimulated myself w/twice the level that I use on Kodee, so I know what it feels like.

Just b/c you disagree with the training method doesn't make it incorrect.
It has nothing to do with disagreeing with the training method. What your teaching your dog is that the only time he/she has to listen to you is when the collar is on. If you teach your dog via Lou's method (as well as most SEASONED e-collar trainers method), the dog learns to be voice conscious to your command through use of voice commands AND stim from the collar. After awhile, doing as asked the first time asked is second nature to the dog because he/she has learned to LISTEN to the voice commands and responds immediately.

Being inconsistant is being unfair to the dog.
 

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Very nice video's!
 

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Originally Posted By: Tracie
It has nothing to do with disagreeing with the training method. What your teaching your dog is that the only time he/she has to listen to you is when the collar is on. If you teach your dog via Lou's method (as well as most SEASONED e-collar trainers method), the dog learns to be voice conscious to your command through use of voice commands AND stim from the collar. After awhile, doing as asked the first time asked is second nature to the dog because he/she has learned to LISTEN to the voice commands and responds immediately.

Being inconsistant is being unfair to the dog.
I still disagree with you, Tracie. I don't believe I'm being inconsistent, and how can you say I'm being unfair to my dog, but it's fine to stimulate the dog while giving him a command (before he even has a chance to respond to what you're saying?) That method sounds unfair to me, presonally. As far as teaching him to obey, the method I use has a period of time where you condition the dog to the collar, so he obeys whether he's wearing the collar or not.

Also, there are "seasoned" e-collar users out there who use the same method I'm using (Ed Frawley's DVD on e-collar training is great, IMO). Have you studied Ed Frawley's method? B/c I have researched Lou Castle's, and I just don't agree with all of what he does, although I'm sure he gets results. Personally I prefer Frawley's method - it works, and I feel it's more fair to the dog, as well as less stressful. That my opinion. Which is what I base my choice on.

Also, those "nice videos" that MaxGunnar posted (which I agree look great), were as he said, the result of using an e-collar and the Leerburg DVD.


Anyway, I'm going to have to agree to disagree w/you. The whole point of my original post was to tell people that I am having great success w/using the e-collar to proof/strengthen the training that I've already done w/my dog.
 

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Ok. We can agree to disagree. Why listen to 25 years of experience. Good luck to you and your dog.

When I made the statement about inconsistany, it was not directed "to" you. It was a general statment.
 

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I see I failed to answer your question about studying Ed Frawley...Yes, I studied Ed Frawley as well as Lou Castle, Robin McFarland, Fred Hassin...........and a few others.

I do mean it when I say I wish you much success with your dog. There is no greater experience than to have a well trained dog.
 

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Originally Posted By: TracieWhy listen to 25 years of experience.
No need to get offended over it. Sheesh! Ed Frawley has more than 35 years of experience, and I'm choosing to listen to him. Don't take it as a personal affront. I'm having great results w/Kodee, which is all I was posting about in the first place.

Good luck to you and YOUR dogs.

Edit: Tracie - I see I was typing while you were posting your last response to me. I agree that a well-trained dog is amazing to have. I do think that if you watched the DVD Ed Frawley made, you might not see the method I'm using as "inconsistent". Just a thought.
 
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