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Camper threw up last Sunday and again Friday night. In between, he had a couple instances of what Dh terms "juicy burps." His stools are generally normal, but there were a couple bouts that started normal then Whoosh! ended a little puddingy.

He eats raw -- a huge variety of meats. Normally, I buy his food at Costco and from other non-grocery store food sources. I had found a great deal on beef ribs at the grocery store, and he had some of those last weekend and on Monday. I figured that the combination of grocery store food and the fatty ribs probably was to blame. He had SIBO last year (summer-fall 2007) so I trim the larger pieces of fat off his food (including the most recent ribs). During the SIBO episode, we ran a bunch of tests, including TLI/cobalamin folate test, which came back perfectly normal. And he once had immediate regurgitation to grocery store meat (different store.) I presumed it was surface disinfectants or something like that and tend to stay away from stores as a result.

I don't know if he's vomiting or regurgitating this week. I just find piles of undigested food.

But even after I pulled the beef ribs out of his diet, he didn't improve. Worse, his normally voracious appetite dropped.

Throughout the week, he had been exercising at his usual high-octane rate and still working, happy, and normal.

My first concern -- partial obstruction of the intestines. Took him to the vet yesterday. We ran x rays and took blood for a full panel. Other than a largish gas bubble in small intestines (which the vet thought could be from stress?),the films look clean. (Blood tests and Radiologist's report won't be back til Monday though.) She said that the SIBO could be back, and if the bacteria are overgrown enough, they could grow high enough into large intestines and cause nausea & vomiting.

She rx'd ampicillin 30/days, which worked on the other bout of SIBO. I'm picking up the abx in a few minutes (the pharmacy has been backed up.) Also adding in probiotics.

BUT this morning, Camper has been depressed, quite clingy, lethargic even. He usually loves cooked meat and gets all talkative if he even thinks it's an option for him. But wouldn't voluntarily touch his boiled chicken. I could get him to eat a few bites, but he clearly was doing it to please me, not because he had any appetite. With lots of urging he drank a bit of chicken broth, but not much. So he appears to have gotten worse in the last 24 hours.

He ate about 1lb cooked chicken last night (and kept it down. At least, I haven't found any piles of it anywhere), but was at the vet's most of the day (and I fasted him ahead of time in case he needed sedation) so he hasn't pooped. But I don't know that he has enough in his system to move things along yet. He's urinating ok.

But something seems to have happened between eating happily last night and not being willing to eat today. His mood dropped too. He's definitely feeling worse.

So what's your diagnosis? Your ideas? Can SIBO bacteria migrate that high? So the abx would work? Or should we be looking at other potential causes as well? I'm watching carefully for dehydration. I don't know what else to do. I don't see any good reason to bring him into the critical care facility on a Sunday, but my Crazy Man is so sad. And I don't know what to do. Help?
 

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I wouldn't waste any time when it comes to my GSD's health. I would either take him to the same vet for a follow up or another. Its better to be safe than sorry. My opinion.
 

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HUGS Lori!! I think that yes, SIBO can give tummy troubles higher up than just the small bowel. I think keep on with the abx. Try not to panic (waayyyy easier said than done
). An obstruction would have shown on the radiographs. And, too, SIBO can start funky before it goes into full-swing, by being intermittant.

Does he have a temp? Gums are normal color? Were the pudding-poops yellowy or lighter in color? I know, with raw, whatever the protien source, the poop color will be different.. but, did they seem unusually light-colored? Just wondering if his pancreas, like Grimm's, gets insulted
at what it percieves as 'extra' fat in the diet. Ribs can be fatty even with the fat trimmed.

Another idea-- my last GSD was reactive to dyes.. I learned because a pet-sitter fed him Snausages, of all things, and Beggin' Strips! Piles of red vomit resulted. There just is something in RED dyes.... and some supermarket meat does have dye
or food coloring added, to make it look more appealing. Is the vomiting less, it sounds like? Maybe his system is reeling from what it felt was too much fat-- and the dyes upset his tummy? If so, he may feel more himself in a day or two.

Is he drinking after running and playing outdoors? The depressed part I can understand... these 'tough guy' GSDs get down and pokey when they have an upset tummy. Grimm does, he gets quiet and mopey.

As long as Camper is not straining to poop, and he is drinking OK, I would try not to worry too much yet. Just watch him today, as I know you will.
Tomorrow the test results may give a much clearer picture. The hardest, besides worrying about them hurting, is not knowing!

(((((Hugs)))))) Sending prayers and good healing energy to CrazyMan Camper of Da Soccerball Round-Up.
 

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I hate mysteries like this, while they are feeling so bad.

Was lipase included in the panel? The behaviour that you describe sounds like when Indy gets a flare-up of pancreatitis. IF the blood work is normal, then I would lean to overgrowth of some kind. You'll probably know soon enough once the abx are started.

In my opinino, until the bloodwork comes back, and until you see the response to the abx, there isn't much you can do, except very small and frequent meals, with as little fat as possible until you get back on the right track.

Hope this passes quickly.
 

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Lori, Gas-X works really nice for getting rid of the built up gas, many of us on the board have it in the dog supply cupboard.

Just a thought, but I would think about fasting for 12 hours or so, make sure he is drinking and holding that down. I might even offer some diluted broth.

I know you are going to start ABX, but I really don't like to give them if my dogs aren't eating anything.

Just a note about the Probioitics and the ABX, do not give at the same time, if your ABX is 12 hours apart, then I give the Probioitics half way inbetween the two ABX. Example: ABX 7 am and 7 pm, then Priobiotics at 1 pm.

Keep us posted on how Camper is doing.
 

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Just remembered something.. during 'turkey week' during some raw feeding for Grimmi, he had a tiny bit of constipation, then some vomiting of cartilege and bone from turkey drums.. then a few days of pudding poops and a mopey demeanor when he wasn't very hungry as he normally is a P-I-G. Might be just a small glitch.. that is what I am hoping for for sweetie boy Camper!
 

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This is probably where I would call the vet, and the one would say, Jean, have you ever felt crappy? Please let your dog feel crappy and understand that it's okay for them not to be okay all the time. Then I would say okay, thank you, you are right. Then I would hang up, post here, start researching and freak myself out. Then I would call again, and if I found something like a temperature, or he was not drinking water at all, they would relent and we'd go in.

This always seems to happen on a weekend doesn't it?

SO I guess I'd be looking for certain additional things other than not eating, which would include a fever, not drinking, and either more peeing/poop or less, or vomiting. If the lethargy got too much, or if he totally refused something that would normally get eaten that is special (I keep Arby's in the freezer for that and need to get some tomorrow actually), I would add that to my list of things that would necessitate a call.

On a side note, Nina started her Baytril on Friday night and just today got a little of her energy back-she has been pretty listless, but luckily eating so I haven't been as worried. I am very sorry that Camper is having this trouble.
 

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Re: Ok. Now I'm getting really worried. What is th

Poor Camper!
I second the gas x idea. I use activated charcoal and it works wonders. Before I started using digestive enzymes Chama sometimes got terrible gas and would wake me up every 20 minutes just to tell me she doesn't feel well (she's also terrified of her farts so that doesn't help). I give her 2 charcoals and within half an hour she's totally better. She also won't touch any food when she's feeling like that.
 

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Re: Ok. Now I'm getting really worried. What is th

Gas X? Does the most paranoid GSD owner in the world -- ok, along with the rest of you -- have Gas-X in her closet? And car first aid kits, and backpacking kit, and I think there's even a blister pack my purse?


Doing that now. Ok. Done. I gave him one Gas-X. Should I give two? He's 82 lbs. I poked holes in the capsule and squeezed as I put it down his throat.

Jean, poop has turned to completely runny. Not pudding poop. Think more like pudding mix before you even pour it into the fancy glasses to cool. So it was all over his tail feathers. (And he got a nice hind-end bath. Nothing's greater than feeling like
, getting
all over yourself, and having your owner insist on bathing you.
) The thing is, I don't know what else an E/R clinic could do besides watch him. And I can do that much more obsessively than they can.


He ate one boneless chicken breast (approx 1/3 lb -- small enough or too big? ) with a blob of canned pumpkin about 1/2 hour ago. Wanted more. So appetite better. Poop was much worse. Normal chicken-poop color though. No blood or anything. If his runny poop continues, I'll switch over to complete fasting; but when came home from Costco just now with a week's worth of boneless skinless chicken breasts, he was thrilled to see all that meat-- so was I that he had his appetite back. I figured I'd try feeding him this once.

Val, do abx kill the probiotics? I was kind of wondering that. My formula is probiotics and enzymes combined. http://shop.robbinspetcare.com/dogs/aeprobiotics.html

Active Ingredients: Alpha & Beta Amylase, Proteases, Lipase, Cellulase, Hemicellulase, Bromelain, Probiotic - Bacillus coagulans.

Anything in here that could be problematic or that I just want to stay away from?

Lisa, The blood panel is, I think, super comprehensive. Pretty much, the only thing that it doesn't test for is T3-T4 and some tick-borne stuff. My vet knows I like the kitchen sink approach. I'll have to ask about lipase specifically though.

Patti, dyes in meat?
I'm never shopping at a grocery store again.

He was barking outside for a few minutes. I left the dog door open due to his possible "urgency" issues. Now he's passed out, sprawled on the king size bed again. Maybe he's just taking advantage of me?
 

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Re: Ok. Now I'm getting really worried. What is th

Tula, he has a lot of food allergies. But he's on a very strict raw/home prepared diet that I obsessively monitor. Of course, new allergies can develop and old sensitivities can morph, but the sudden onset of violent symptoms (with no attendant itching or skin symptoms) didn't immediately lead me in that direction.

But, then again I did take him off all antihistamines this week due to possible adverse side effects. But his last Benedryl was Tuesday, and these symptoms started Sunday.
 

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Re: Ok. Now I'm getting really worried. What is th

Not the least of which is that we often call him Campie (or Campy?)


Thanks for the link...especially this part: Ampicillin is relatively inactive against most strains of Campylobacter , and most strains are also resistant to penicillin.

I'll bring this in to my vet tomorrow and run it by her. She may want to change his abx. (Oh, and of course, do the dx tests first!
)
 

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Re: Ok. Now I'm getting really worried. What is th

Sorry to hear Camper is not feeling well. Can't help you much here, you seam to know a lot more about canine illnesses than I do


Hugs to Camper and hope he feels beter soon!
 

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Re: Ok. Now I'm getting really worried. What is th

Lori,

ABX are really good things when you need to use them. They do their job, the kill bacteria. The problem is they don't know good bacteria from bad bacteria, so they just kill it all.

So what you want to do is give the ABX time to work and kill off bacteria then use the Probioitics to restore the good bacteria, other wise you have the ABX so busy killing off the good bacteria it doesn't have enough juice left to kill the bad bacteria off.

When I have to give ABX I asked the Vet about the Probioitics and my thoughts for a schedule she said it would be really good as it gave the ABX time to work. So it seems to be a good schedule for my dogs, I always caution people not to give at the same time (hours) they are give the ABX.

I know I posted the same thing to Miss Jean when sweet Nina was not doing so well.
 
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Re: Ok. Now I'm getting really worried. What is th

Nothing to add of use, Lori, except good wishes for Camper's recovery.
 

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Re: Ok. Now I'm getting really worried. What is th

Thanks Tom.


Patient's official status report:

Patient's blood work came back "completely unremarkable." Radiologist says that there's some evidence of gastritis "possibly" related to food. (Augh! Weird grocery store food!
) Or possibly related to the bacteria from the SIBO travelling upward and causing inflammation. Otherwise, films are also unremarkable. But the gastritis might explain the vomiting and general "ugh" feeling...?

Patient is taking abx as administered by his personal staff; is eating regular small meals of luke warm boiled chicken with 1-2 tsp canned pumpkin.

Staff inquired, and the vet ok'd administering Pepcid (10mg TID) for the gastritis. Patient's personal staff is also administering this. Patient is definitely working all these meds for extra warm chicken snacks.


Any other suggestions? I was thinking Vitamin C for immune function but that's acidic. So I'm going to avoid that for now. I'll give probiotics as Val suggested.

Didn't I read somewhere that bacteria create/give off gas in anaerobic environments? Or is that only yeast? Should I continue with the Gas-X? I don't like giving medicines just because. But if he needs something, well, I've likely got it, and I'll give it.

Camper's been napping most of the day. He runs outside, barks a little, then retuns to his nap. Feeling a bit better, but not much.

Oh, Jean, my vet knew all about Campy-bacteria-osis. (And she doesn't "think" it's named after him, but said she'd double-check.
) She said that it's really common in puppies and little kids. It doesn't respond to ampicillin, which is what we're giving now, since that is what cured his SIBO last time. She said that if he doesn't improve substantially in the next several days, we'll run a test for that. But she is kind of doubtful that he has it, given his age and despite the fact that it's named after him.
 

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Re: Ok. Now I'm getting really worried. What is th

Another vist to Spa de la Madre to get the tail feathers cleaned.



Sigh...
 

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Re: Ok. Now I'm getting really worried. What is th

Poor Camper. I hope he feels better soon.

(I don't have any insight to add to his actual health issues...sorry)
 
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