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Ha no. Juan and myself is we. We do 5 days worth of handler sessions for people going home with dogs that have trained for a month on their pet behaviors and people often still struggle with very easy mechanics related to asking for and maintaining those commands even when it is broken down to its simplest form.

Learning how to put those behaviors on a dog is way way harder than maintaining it.
 

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Ha no. Juan and myself is we. We do 5 days worth of handler sessions for people going home with dogs that have trained for a month on their pet behaviors and people often still struggle with very easy mechanics related to asking for and maintaining those commands even when it is broken down to its simplest form.

Learning how to put those behaviors on a dog is way way harder than maintaining it.
I was commenting specifically about online courses.
 

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The information could be worth that much if organized properly and it was being bought by the right person. People pay 200-300 for non working spots in seminars all the time just to hear someone talk dog training concepts that are usually simple.

I don't really know what's in that course pack so I can't speak on it directly but it doesn't sound crazy.
 

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A GSD owner at the club fly to ME for at least two of his courses. Tons of $$.

The dog was a nice WG line dog, real looker, nice drives, quality animal.

The dog was out of control, and the helper would not do bite work with him until he got into better control. This after the dog had been through two ME courses.

I think, based on this, that ME might be a bit weak on control in dogs that need it?

The handler wasn't super strong, but she paid good money and had a very nice dog. No nerve issues or otherwise so nothing holding him back aside from handling.

I think ME is a very nice guy and a good trainer, but I am not sure you get more out of going to his course than you would going to a good IPO club. But that is the only experience I have with his courses, outside of getting a bunch of his DVDs second hand. I watched them all but, they really varied in quality and some put me to sleep quite literally. It's very hard to learn dog training from a DVD.
 

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It says more about the handler than ME tbh

I know tons of handlers that work with really good training directors or decoys that have crap results because they don't put what they're being taught into action with the necessary stick toitness or consistency. This is less a reflection of the people they work with and more on the handler.
 

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My GSD and I were at ME's school for the 2-week OB Intensive course back in 2010. Totally worth it to me. I was a newbie to training then, but we were already in a PSA club for about 7 months, I had basic understanding of marker training, and I watched ME's power of food and power of tug DVDs before I started his course.

During the course, ME spent quite a bit of time talking about operant conditioning, looking at things from a dog's point of view, desensitization, counter-conditioning, how to minimize conflict during training...etc. He taught us how to build engagement, teach attention heel, loose leash walk, sit/down/stand using luring, recall (we practiced restrained recalls), how to fade out the lure, when to add correction, and how to do it fairly.

I don't think the course benefited my GSD that much, she was not a good sports candidate to begin with (we originally got her as a pet), but it definitely gave me a better understanding of training in general. My husband and I started fostering for different rescues shortly after I came back from this course. What I learned from ME's school really gave us the confidence to work with some of the more difficult dogs/different behavior issues, thanks to the foster dogs, I also got to practice a lot of ME's techniques.

ME's school will not train your dog for you, it teaches you all the skills/concepts you need to be a better handler for your dog.
 

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It says more about the handler than ME tbh

I know tons of handlers that work with really good training directors or decoys that have crap results because they don't put what they're being taught into action with the necessary stick toitness or consistency. This is less a reflection of the people they work with and more on the handler.
Well, its tougher to point the finger that way when you have a club and your working with people trying to go from nothing to titles. 4 wks of concept, go have fun makes that a lot easier.
 

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It's not about fun. It's about being super serious and putting more pressure on your dog than overbearing parents with unrealistic expectations do on their kids.
 

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Michael Ellis doesn't train dogs. He trains trainers. To complete his coursework you'll be spending in the neighborhood of 20k plus whatever it takes to get you to California and stay for a few weeks.

Good experience? Sure.

OLK9 will cost you closer to 2k and will train your dog for you and teach you how to handle him.

Big difference.

Methodology wise with w collar they don't differ that much. Michael Ellis is much more into lure and shaping behaviors and lots of reward repetition before layering in prong and e collar pressure. I believe off leash is mostly leash and e collar pressure from the get go. They are trying to accomplish two different things though. Michael Ellis style training is for sport dogs and trying to get flashy behavior and OLK9 is just about training and getting control on a pet dog. There is a vast difference.

I have my pet commands that were trained with pressure for no or very little reward. They are performed calmly and without expectation of reward. The dogs don't get all excited rigid and wait to explode into whatever happens next. I don't like that in my everyday pet commands.

The sport commands were trained with pressure and varying degrees of reward and they carry the expectation and energy of that with the behavior. They don't get used in everyday life with the dog though.

So really you have to ask yourself two major questions.

Do you want to learn to become a trainer and have this be your learning dog?

Or do you just want your dog to be trained and know how to get the behavior out of him under someone else's framework?

Olk9 is definitely cheaper and faster.

The Michael Ellis thing would be a journey and costly one at that but in the end you'd learn a lot.
Thank You! Now I understand what my issue with him was. ANd apparently it was simple not my world! So now I can do what I always have done ... listen and share his lectures that I find applicable and stop trying to get on his case.

Job well done sir!

Would have been a Houndie but I think you already go one?? :)
 

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Yeah people have to be careful when they watch Michael Ellis videos on YouTube or beginning level DVDs because the luring and shaping phase of things is a very very very early part of the process that gives way to pressure and corrections to finally finish the behavior. If you haven't paid for finishing series DVDs you can't claim to fully understand anything. You've only seen the start not the finish.

What's easily available on YouTube is the least objectionable part of the process. It's part of a marketing strategy.

What Michael Ellis does is not unique to dog training. Tons of people lure and shape and layer pressure in the same way. There is nothing special about what he does except for the fact he is intelligent and can speak clearly and fluently and break down the science behind it in a way new people can understand.
 

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It's not about fun. It's about being super serious and putting more pressure on your dog than overbearing parents with unrealistic expectations do on their kids.
Lol, yeah. Ok.
Yeah people have to be careful when they watch Michael Ellis videos on YouTube or beginning level DVDs because the luring and shaping phase of things is a very very very early part of the process that gives way to pressure and corrections to finally finish the behavior. If you haven't paid for finishing series DVDs you can't claim to fully understand anything. You've only seen the start not the finish.

What's easily available on YouTube is the least objectionable part of the process. It's part of a marketing strategy.

What Michael Ellis does is not unique to dog training. Tons of people lure and shape and layer pressure in the same way. There is nothing special about what he does except for the fact he is intelligent and can speak clearly and fluently and break down the science behind it in a way new people can understand.
This is more of what I'm talking about. More the business model vs a club setting. The difference between training with someone through everything that comes up compared to an expensive 2 weeks that gives an impression of being something that it isn't. Then its pretty easy to be given credit for success with deniability built in for failure.People go home lighter in the wallet and on their own.

I'm not talking about only IPO clubs either. AKC obedience groups are a better value. In general 8wks for about 150 dollars. Move through a couple levels and then to smaller group in that club for more serious formal training.

I just don't see it as worth the money to get a lecture on operant conditioning and fading lures. I just don't see it as being that much more then the free Youtube videos. I understand not everyone has access to all the options we have in this area, and its their money. Just my opinion on the costs.
 
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