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I'm just wondering, but do people prefer to see OFA certifications or PennHip certifications on the breeding dogs? I recently read an article that gave specifics as to why PennHip is better and the procedure they use gives you a much better and thorough idea as to the actual laxity of the dog's hips. Are there a lot of breeders that do PennHip? Or is OFA the general most accepted hip certification method? Would you still buy from a breeder that did PennHip certs instead of OFA certs?
 

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I use OFA, which is cheaper and gives me a better idea of how the hips and elbows are. Most people seem to use OFA, but many people would still buy from a breeder using PennHip. OFA seems to be less complicated to me, but that is just my opinion.
 

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As a purchaser.... I like to see OFA. One because of the age (2+), I don't like when xrays are done too early on the breeding pair. I like to know the dog was grown and mature and what ratings they had then. It's more universally understood in my experiences with other dog owners/breeders/trainers. I would still possibly consider with Pennhip... but, I would really need to trust the breeder and know they are trustworthy and the health of the previous litters is good.

I'm not a breeder, so I don't have an opinion on that side. When my family raised and showed golden retrievers, they were OFA'd.... though I was too young to thoroughly understand the ins and outs of what they did and why.
 

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PennHIP is a better procedure and more reliable than OFA. More x-rays are done, each breed has its own set of numbers, and PennHIP is a better predictor of long term joint issues. OFA is a very inaccurate rating based on subjective readings of 3 radiologist. Of the three readings, the gets the lowest reading. In other words, if your dog is rated good by two readers and fair by the third, the dog is rated as Fair. Likewise, if the dog has two Fair ratings and one dysplasic, the dog is rated as dysplasic. PennHIP rating is based on measurements and numbers, not someone's opinion.
 

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PennHIP is a better procedure and more reliable than OFA. More x-rays are done, each breed has its own set of numbers, and PennHIP is a better predictor of long term joint issues. OFA is a very inaccurate rating based on subjective readings of 3 radiologist. Of the three readings, the gets the lowest reading. In other words, if your dog is rated good by two readers and fair by the third, the dog is rated as Fair. Likewise, if the dog has two Fair ratings and one dysplasic, the dog is rated as dysplasic. PennHIP rating is based on measurements and numbers, not someone's opinion.
Did some research on PennHIP today... it's not really what I thought, and what was explained to be previously. This is pretty much what I saw today. In those terms.... it changes my mind a little. However, I still think OFA is more recognizable and universally understood. Not many know of PennHIP... especially the average dog owner. Not that, that makes it better or worse.... just what most will recognize and use toward their decisions.
 

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In other words, if your dog is rated good by two readers and fair by the third, the dog is rated as Fair.
Since when (honest question)? I was always told if two radiologists said good and the third said fair, the dog was good

ETA: http://www.offa.org/hd_grades.html

Apparently what I stated was correct
 

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Since when (honest question)? I was always told if two radiologists said good and the third said fair, the dog was good

ETA: Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Hip Dysplasia

Apparently what I stated was correct
I stand corrected. Thanks for the information.
I would rather rate a dogs hips using actually measurements and numbers rather than a human eye deciding. But that is the scientist in me. IMO, the PennHIP procedure was created to address the shortcomings of the OFA process. As such, the subjectivity of the OFA is taken out and replaced by actual mathematical measurements resulting in an objective evaluation of the hips. In addition, all results of a PennHIP rating are included in their data base and used to compare your results leading to a quantifiable, objective rating. Subsequently, IMO, a much more accurate rating based on scientific measurements taking the human element out of the equation.
 

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They both serve a purpose of giving an outward expression of the hip status. The OFA is probably more valuable to buyers and some breeders whose primary clientele is the public....Pennhipp is more used by breeders that want a stronger long range prediction of joint laxity. For breeders radiographs are essential for breeding decisions, for owners OFA is often a sense of security for the future of their individual dog. Jmo
 

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And far better is to also look at the data on not just the parents but their littermates, their parents, their parent's littermates, etc. Depth and breadth of pedigree, aka genetics.
 

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OFA is easy to understand for the average pet buyer. PennHip is probably more valuable for someone wanting a detailed analysis of the hips. I really don't care which is used as long as the hips are evaluated prior to making a breeding decision.
 

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I'm personally more interested in the overall hip production of the lines. To me, hips are either breedable or they are not, and even that changes depending on the actual breeding and combination of lines. If the hips are fine, I don't really need a detailed analysis and multiple views. OFA or a-stamp is fine for me. Nikon's hips were checked twice (at 7 and 24 months) by the actual person whose research the PennHip ratings are based on, so suffice to say I trust his evaluation regardless of what rating system I use.
 

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I use OFA, which is cheaper and gives me a better idea of how the hips and elbows are. Most people seem to use OFA, but many people would still buy from a breeder using PennHip. OFA seems to be less complicated to me, but that is just my opinion.
False... First film of the three in pennHIP *IS* the ofa film. You learn more from pennHIP simply because pennHIP is OFA plus two other X-rays. You also get a computational (objective) measure. PennHIP is superior to OFA, end of story. Folks don't like pennHIP bc it can expose hips that distract under load that otherwise look great on an unloaded film.
 

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False... First film of the three in pennHIP *IS* the ofa film. You learn more from pennHIP simply because pennHIP is OFA plus two other X-rays. You also get a computational (objective) measure. PennHIP is superior to OFA, end of story. Folks don't like pennHIP bc it can expose hips that distract under load that otherwise look great on an unloaded film.

I had thought this was correct. I had been reading up on both procedures and it was my opinion that PennHip was a better route to go with when looking at how the hips truly are, because of the detailed procedure they do. True, it may be a bit more costly but when you're supposedly breeding to better the breed wouldn't you want to do a procedure that would ensure that you aren't breeding a dog with bad hips? After all, breeders aren't supposed to cut corners just because it's cheaper.
 

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Folks don't like pennHIP bc it can expose hips that distract under load that otherwise look great on an unloaded film.
I think this statement is a bit farfetched. I don't think most people who don't use PennHip do so because they are afraid of what it will show.

There are many reasons. One being that it is much more expensive and there are far fewer vets who can do it making it unavailable in some areas. While it may provide some nice additional info, many believe not enough to make the cost and difficulty worth it. Especially not when as Lies said it's the general status of the joints that people are after and the minutia doesn't matter.

My biggest problem with PennHip is the lack of a database that displays results and is searchable. This goes to what Lisa said about the general trends within a family and the breadth of the pedigree being essential. When one can't find out the results and research those of relatives, the system looses it's value. There is far more involved than just that individual dog so a system that may provide more info on that dog, but absolutely no way to find the info on his relatives, has limited use to breeders and informed buyers.

And the of course it isn't recognized for some things like breed surveys.

If one wants a recognized and accepted rating, and the ability to research, then OFA or a-stamp or something else has to be used and PennHip would need to be in addition to those. And many don't feel that what additional info it provides on top of still needing to use one of the other systems is worth the cost.

Nothing wrong with PennHip. In some ways it may be superior, but in other ways not. Whether it's more valuable or not is up to personal preference. But there's nothing wrong with using a different grading system either. I think it a bit absurd to jump to the conclusion that anyone not using your preferred system are falling short, or trying to hide something.
 

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My biggest problem with PennHip is the lack of a database that displays results and is searchable.
This is exactly why my club does not recognize it as an option for the required hip certification under the COE. A hip, elbow, eye or heart clearance (in my breed) is worthless if it is not in a searchable database.
 

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The PennHIP database is much more accurate than the OFA database because PennHIP includes every dog that has been examined unlike OFA who only records the results if the owner approves. Entering data is optional with the OFA, it is not with PennHIP.
 

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Yes, and considering one of the things that they track and report on is where a dog falls in terms of a percentile for it's breed, a fully complete database is important.
But when the database is not searchable to others and is essentially closed so that claims can't be verified and families can't be tracked, it is a database with no value beyond giving a percentile. I think if they were to provide a means for people to access the database via a website like OFA has, or even just publish the results on CD like the SV does, they would become much more valuable and popular.

Oh, and OFA records all results. They only publish negative results if the owner gives permission. But they have the results, just unpublished. PennHip publishes nothing. I really wish they would.
 

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I agree with Chris. While I personally feel PennHip may very well be a better measure of what the hips are, the lack of searchable database is a HUGE problem for me. I want people to be able to search a database and go "Oh, hey, look at that!"

Not at all possible with PennHip. I'm not going to pay all that extra money for PennHip when I can't even search for my results
 

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You get a nice print out of your results if you PennHIP. Database or not, it is a much better procedure of determining the status of hips than OFA - period. I hate to think the number of dogs and the reduction in genetic diversity has been eliminated due to a poor OFA reading. The OFA process is full of flaws yet many people see it as the Gospel. Sad, sad indeed.
I've seen dogs that barely pass OFA due to poor position, a bad read, sedation but score in the upper 10% on PennHIPP. How does the OFA score a dog with one very good hip and one marginal hip? And why, if HD is genetic, are so many "HD" OFA dogs only exhibit one bad hip?
SHOW ME THE NUMBERS. LOL
 

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Yeah, *I* get a nice printout, but it's not searchable. That's a real problem. Even if people don't want it to be, it really is :-/
 
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