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This thread is kind of highlighting to me just how bad popular sire syndrome is. The Y chromosome comes from the father and we have very much limited ourselves on that. Of course pedigree database isn't perfect but it is a bit concerning and I can see why we would want to find less common male lines. Or where some benefits of outcrossing could be. Also many people were skeptical of using sexed semen. But so me this highlights one of the preservation standpoints of genetics it could be used for. To ensure all or a higher percentage of males in lines that are not as common.

Also Erich vom Glockenbrink , goes back to Hettel Uckermark which is the same male Klodo vom Boxberg goes back to. So they're both traced back to the same male line, just earlier than Klodo.

The few male lines I've been able to find that don't trace back to Roland, disappear into the US around 1920.

 

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Discussion Starter #22
Also Erich vom Glockenbrink , goes back to Hettel Uckermark which is the same male Klodo vom Boxberg goes back to. So they're both traced back to the same male line, just earlier than Klodo.
check out the BIG brain on Kazel!! I never even bothered to look beyond the klodo bottleneck. Well done! I see Immo goes back to hettel as well...

how rare are liver coated gsds?
I don't know much about color genetics but my guess would be liver is some sort of dilution? In usa they seem less common than 30 yrs ago, but you can still probably find one available right now.
 

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check out the BIG brain on Kazel!! I never even bothered to look beyond the klodo bottleneck. Well done! I see Immo goes back to hettel as well...
Clicking on random entries in the pedigree database every single one of them has gone back to Roland on the male line. I think we'd be hard pressed to find any males that do not go back to him. I'd be interested in seeing how diverse the overall Y gene in german shepherds is. Mutations do happen of course so it has to have diversified over the years, but still would like to see just how much particularly based by line. This study was quite interesting. German shepherds had 3 maternal types and only one male type which makes sense after seeing how most are tracing back to one male. Also I feel like males that do not have the same type of Y chromosome could then be potential evidence of mixing. I'd be interested to test males from the brindle line of german shepherds, although similar breed types that they'd likely have been mixed with to create would have a high chance of carrying the same type of y chromosome.

 

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Clicking on random entries in the pedigree database every single one of them has gone back to Roland on the male line. I think we'd be hard pressed to find any males that do not go back to him. I'd be interested in seeing how diverse the overall Y gene in german shepherds is. Mutations do happen of course so it has to have diversified over the years, but still would like to see just how much particularly based by line. This study was quite interesting. German shepherds had 3 maternal types and only one male type which makes sense after seeing how most are tracing back to one male. Also I feel like males that do not have the same type of Y chromosome could then be potential evidence of mixing. I'd be interested to test males from the brindle line of german shepherds, although similar breed types that they'd likely have been mixed with to create would have a high chance of carrying the same type of y chromosome.


Thank you, Kazel, for sharing that study! Very interesting (at least for geeks like me! LOL!).

A couple of, IMHO, really good quotes from their conclusions were:

"Alternatively, before the establishment of modern breeding strategies, recognizable dog types may have been maintained, but they were far less isolated from each other and from mongrels than they are today."

And;

"From this diverse pool of dogs some individuals were selected as founders and became the seed of new breeds. Due to this recent sorting from an ancient dog gene pool, dogs that belong to the same mtDNA or Y chromosome lineages do not need to be morphologically or behaviorally similar. Selection was centered on males and a bias in the contribution of the sexes may have predominated at the origin of most modern dog breeds."

I rest my case!

Really don't have a case, just always wanted to say that LOL!
 

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Thank you, Kazel, for sharing that study! Very interesting (at least for geeks like me! LOL!).

A couple of, IMHO, really good quotes from their conclusions were:

"Alternatively, before the establishment of modern breeding strategies, recognizable dog types may have been maintained, but they were far less isolated from each other and from mongrels than they are today."

And;

"From this diverse pool of dogs some individuals were selected as founders and became the seed of new breeds. Due to this recent sorting from an ancient dog gene pool, dogs that belong to the same mtDNA or Y chromosome lineages do not need to be morphologically or behaviorally similar. Selection was centered on males and a bias in the contribution of the sexes may have predominated at the origin of most modern dog breeds."

I rest my case!

Really don't have a case, just always wanted to say that LOL!
Haha, hey it's fun to say. It seems instead of tracing specific dogs we should look for paternal haplotype groups.

Here is a shelter dog from Embark showing paternal haplotype found in samoyed and keeshound. As such I wonder if the dog was mixed farther back in it's pedigree and then bred back to german shepherds to produce a "pure" dog.

 

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Here is the thing though. It has to be a combination of both. I have not studied DNA as in book knowledge. I watch and observe through actual breedings.

A lot of people will pick breedings based on males but the mother matters just as much.
 

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The mother also has a sire line and that should also be taken into account.
The point is though that the mother cannot pass on a Y chromosome, that will come from the only from the male line. I challenge you to find 3 random GSDs and follow the male line. I bet you the Y chromosome will eventually trace back to one dogs they all have in common. From the mother you get mitochondrial DNA plus one of her X chromosomes. This is strictly from what comes from the male line only.
 

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If you are interested in Nuclear DNA, there is one string that was built on Nuclear. Frei von der Gugge all the way to Karn vom Fegelhof.
He goes back to Klodo and as such back to Roland like all of the other males.
 

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Nooo way. I am appalled. 😱😂

Of course a breed has an origin. Every breed goes back to the same stock!
It's more the fact that could regularly trace back to the exact same dog on the male line. There's a difference between going back to the same stock and almost all male dogs having the same Y chromosome from one ancestor. It's a good thing we have DNA mutations and crossover to get some diversity on chromosomes. Along with that I'm sure there are some dogs with hung papers in their ancestry that don't go back to the one dog, not offical but there nonetheless. Maybe also some incorrect records and not every dog or line is on the pedigree database.
 

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For berno-- a book recommendation you might like The German Shepherd Dog a Genetic History by Malcolm Willis. He's considered to be the foremost German Shepherd dog geneticist. And you might be interested to know that according to him, Erich v Grafenwerth appears at least once in the pedigree of every German Shepherd dog today. He is also the sire of Klodo v Boxberg. So there's one of your early genetic bottlenecks. (1920) But far from the earliest . . . .

I was able to identify more than 200 originating individuals in the breed, but the truth is that the preponderant genes of the breed come from a very few individuals, 6 females and 2 males, basically.

Males: Pollux v Hanau, a Swabian (Southern Germany) Herding 'Old Blood' dog and Greif, a Northern 'land race' herding dog.

Females: Prima v Hanau, a mix of Swabian (Southern) Herding 'Old Blood' and Thuringian (Eastern Germany) 'Yard' dog, terrier type
Schaefermadchen, Saxony (Central Germany) Herding 'Old Blood' type
Lotte Sparwasser, Thuringian (Eastern Germany) terrier type 'yard' dog
Mores Pleiningen, Swabian (Southern) Herding 'Old Blood'
Madame v d Krone the Elder, Swabian (Southern) Herding 'Old Blood'
Lori Brenztal (mother of Loria) Swabian (Southern) Herding 'Old Blood'

Lets start with Erich v Grafenwerth to demonstrate this. Erich was sired by Alex v Westfalenheim.
Alex was sired by Hettel Uckermark. Hettel Uckermark was sired by Roland v Starkenburg.

Roland was the first black dog, born 1903 twice Germany's Sieger and once Austria's Sieger. Roland appears over 800 times (over 800 lines back to) in German High line Canto v d Wienerau, Quanto v d Wienerau, and Czech dog Andy Maly Vah (mostly through the Pohranici Strasse lines) just for example. So lets take a closer look at Roland

Roland v Starkenburg was sired by Hektor v Starkenburg and his dam was Bella v Starkenburg. Hektor was sired by Hektor v Swaben, whose Sire was Horand v Grafath and whose dam was Mores Pleiningen. Hektor v Starkenburg's dam (mother) was Lucie v Starkenburg, whose sire was the aforementioned Pollux v Hanau and whose dam was Prima v Hanau, as above.

Bella v Starkenburg was sired by Beowulf v Sonnenberg and her dam (mother) was Lucie v Starkenburg. Yep, same Lucie.

Beowulf v Sonnenberg was by Hektor v Swaben--Yep, that same Hektor v Swaben, and his dam was Thekla v d Krone who was by Horand v Grafath--yes, him again! and her dam (mother) was Madame v d Krone the Elder as above.

Now, since Horand v Grafath appears twice here, lets look at Horand. Father Kastor Rude, mother Liene Sparwasser. Here's were it gets interesting. Kastor's father was Pollux v Hanau (same old Pollux) and his mother was Schaefermadchen, as above. Liene Sparwasser's father was Greif (as above) and her mother was Lotte Sparwasser (as above).

This is THE basic foundation genetics of all German Shepherd dogs. Lori comes in later through Horst v Boll who was the most popular sire with the most progeny of the first twenty years of the breed. Horst, with Luchs v Kalsmunt Wetzlar set down the foundation of the Kriminal Poleizei, the first major law enforcement family of the breed. (Though Swabian Service dogs had been in use for nearly a century already as police dogs and 'ambulance' dogs --what they called search and rescue dogs.)

Hettel Uckermark was the son of Roland and Grettel Uckermark, and Grettel Uckermark was the daughter of none other than Beowulf Sonnenberg (again). And to get Alex v Westfalenheim, Hettel was bred to Bella v d Leine--the granddaughter of his full brother, Guntar Uckermark. Alex was then bred to Bianca Riedekenburg, a daughter of Hettel Uckermark to produce Erich v Grafenwerth. I doubt you want to know how many times Hektor v Swaben, Beowulf Sonnenberg, Horand v Grafath and Polux v Hanau appear behind Erich, but there's a reason Alex was the first dog in which Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency was diagnosed.

Just the facts. Have fun!

Note--pedigrees provided by Stephanitz, B H Wootton, Fred Lanting, and Miles Denlinger in their books, The German Shepherd Dog, The German Shepherd Dog, The German Shepherd Dog, and the Complete German Shepherd dog, bearing in mind that Stephanitz' book only covers to 1920 and Denlinger's was first printed in 1950.



















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