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I've been called troll so many times I hesitate to start another thread; but I've looked at so many peds now, specifically east german and czech so far, that I probably ought to start keeping like a running tally of what I find. Personally I think Science currently over estimates the significance of nuclear DNA (that which male offspring may inherit from male parent). In terms of reproduction, FAR more is required of/inherited from the female (mitochondrial DNA) parent.
In any event, it's been said that most gsd alive today were sired by a descendant of klodo vom boxberg, and that may indeed be a good rule of thumb? This thread is dedicated to the exceptions of that rule. Again this is just a running tally, work in progress. I'll post them as I find them. Genetically speaking, if your male dog's sire's sire's sire's sire traces all the way back to one of the dogs in this thread, his nuclear DNA may be somewhat "diverse."


first up we have V immo vom hasenfang SZ 568512 (DOB 1942)
 

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I ran out of coffee like an hour ago and my eyes are starting to cross here, but I'm afraid to move without jotting this down for fear I'll lose it. I just found a fork in the tree from whence akc conformation and z ps diverge


In other words BOTH 2019 westminster BOB marquis' hermes v KENlyn AND

IPO3 KENn jipo me go back to SV 568512 immo vom hasenfang by way of

Axel von der Deininghauserheide, who sired both... ARGH! must. have. coffee.
for now lets just say he grandsired both

SEL CH (US) fortune of arbywood 1957 AND sired

"old mr working gsd lines" himself, the one, the only, Alf vom Nordfelsen (look at all those progeny!!)

all the aforementioned individuals pictured above descend from Nestor vom Wiegerfelsen 1934

whew!
 

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Look for "Iceberg Breeders" in the bloodlines forum.There is tons of info that would be of interest to you in that thread.Might save you some time and save your eyes :oops:
 

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I know should switch to tea... I've been on a roll...

Look for "Iceberg Breeders" in the bloodlines forum.There is tons of info that would be of interest to you in that thread.Might save you some time and save your eyes :oops:
good call: ICEBERG BREEDERS I've taken enough core samples of all standard living modern "types" that it looks to me like you've either got an immo, or a klodo.

I expect/hope to find a hidden gem or two in the whites, but from what I've seen so far there's quite a bit of "nuclear" introgression via berger blanc suisse now. I appreciate introgression as a tool in rational breeding, but only on the mitochondrial side of a pedigree. I fear this may dq most berger blanc suisse, right out of the gate...

I'm attracted to the breed because it is, or at least was, THE most purposefully, precisely, deliberately on a grand scale, breed of dog ever developed. Admittedly, in modern times the breed has been surpassed by others (bsd/bc/ect) in every performance venue. However I assert those that did the surpassing did so at the expense of utility... but I digress...
 

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Eureka! Honeyhill, hoofprint, joyland, jo-el’s, regalwise, reeves royal acres, snowcloud, sundown, tumbledown, von finn, von taz, windstrom, etc etc. I just found 2 distinct, LIVING “nuclear” lines in about 15 minutes time. Just a few clicks effectively doubled the gsd genepool at large.

SZ 275752 another grafenwerth grandson


SZ 52757 linebred on horst/munko

Don’t underestimate that old fashioned type. Nothing wraps around a bitearm better than a loong jaw attached to a narrrow skull. No telling what sort of hidden “mitochondrial” treasures are waiting to be found in the white peds?
Unfortunately no bbs peds @ euro-dog, and it appears bbs breeders did found lines on various white spitz type “nuclear” parentstocks, so you really have to do your homework. But it looks promising.

I am quite confident if a breeder simply introduced a bunch of seesaws, springpoles, tunnels, ramps etc on weaning day, a white cross litter would ace VPAT. I personally would throw in at least a starter pistol at feeding time, chainsaw, leafblower, windchimes, etc. Of course they wouldn't all be prospects, but I assure you there would at least be a pick. The genes are there. Lurking.

edit: I can't quite remember how the story went now, but either when sv dq'd white gsd a bunch of white gsd went onto dsd roles, or maybe it was when knpv dq'd white dsd a bunch of white dsd went onto gsd roles, but it's not entirely unheard of to get a bit of white from gsd x dsd and/or dsd x gsd. No idea what lines?
 

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I'm going OT for a minute, but @ this point what does it matter? I'm just a lunatic replying to himself way out here in cyberspace. This dog just blew me away and I don't want to forget him.

SZ 63851 I'm not that into protection so really not my cup of tea, but just look at that thing. Eye sockets well forward in the skull, engineered to scan the horizon. Long jaw, narrow head, built for speed. A dog like that could run a bad guy down from a long LONG way off, and turn him into an amputee in about 20 seconds. Take a look at the ped & you see both parents were sighthoundy type. Take a look at the grandsires ("nuclear") and you can see it didn't come from them, so this is apparently a matter of "mitochondrial" expression.
 

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back on track now (standard peds)

SZ 275752 Erich vom Glockenbrink I just ran into this dog behind a working litter. It's only the second time I've seen him, and I've been hunting hard.

OT, I'm almost sure there are errors in the database. One little mistake throws the whole thing off.
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
558062

Breeders, if you fool around with what you have on hand there and plan even just 3 or 4 generations out from where you are right now, you'll see how quickly the stuff in the middle gets lost forever.

The entire "house" is built on grafenwerth. So far I've identified only 3 living "branches": klodo (common), immo (less common?), and this dog (apparently downright rare?)

SZ 275752 This branch appears to be at the very edge of extinction. If you have a prepotent male from this line, don't just muddy up that nuclear DNA with males from the other 2 lines. Steward it. Preserve it. Anyone well heeled enough, for heaven's sake, freeze a bunch of this on file for future generations. As tech advances, so does Population Science.
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
:( unfortunately at this point it appears all that's left to do is attempt to scare up some diversity by reverse engineering 30-40 year old peds. The AVK ("ancestor loss coefficient") I'm finding in the 80's-90's is just staggering. So many unique "nuclear" ancestors dead end @ female progeny, only to be mated with "flavor of the year" male offspring.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
On perhaps a more positive note, the old saying "use it or lose it" comes to mind.


in other words if you turn a pair of these loose in the woods and return just a few years later, you'll observe how fast a feral isolated population reverts back to wild type ("local adaptation"). Because mother nature simply doesn't care whether ANY individual manages to survive. It's just business. Not personal.


Natural selection culls so hard, surviving offspring have no alternative but to "linebreed."
This same formula applies directly to gsd.


SZ 869032 it only took 10 generations of fairly passive (imo) "linebreeding" to get from here to there


AKC D775723 click the peds & count back for yourself. It happened just that fast, and artificial selection cuts both ways. In other words "intense" artificial selection (ie; a dash or 2 of inbreeding followed by judicious selection) accelerates genetic drift much more RAPIDLY than the typical "popular sire" breeding schemes we find in the database.


provided the artificial selector has very clear goals in mind...
 
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