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My wife and I just adopted two 7 year old gsd's that have been together all their lives. The female is dominant over the male and he's obviously content with his pace within their two-member pack. They are both very aggressive to us, but the male is extremely aggressive.

We cannot even think about having any contact with them. I know they are stressed and hissed off after having been relocated from the only home they ever knew, and I know we have to allow them to begin to trust us on their on time table which will be very very long term.

Last night the male tried to climb the fence to get to me. It was obvious he wasn't just trying to assert his dominance, he wanted to get his fangs on me I have no doubt whatsoever. At one point it looked like he might be able to get over but he fell backward and didn't try again - but I assure he was trying to scale the fence.

She's not quite as aggressive to us but he gets her stirred up to the point that she'll soon mimic him and it becomes a vicious cycle. I'm not making much eye contact with them at all, and certainly not doing anything to antagonize them. I also believe it's much too early to attempt to establish my place as pack leader, other than not essentially ignoring them for now until they get used to their new surroundings.

This is going to be a very long term bonding if ever - they were kennel dogs for the last 4 years and did not receive the proper amount of socialization with humans. My question is whether I should separate them or not. My instinct tells me I should so they do not reinforce each's bad behavior, and so they each begin to look to us as their provider and leader and source of socialization needs. Last night we sat in lawn chairs about 15 feet outside their fenced area (which is very large) not facing them, just talking casually and sipping wine. We have always done this but now we are not doing it inside the house but in proximity of them, and plan to do this each evening weather allowing so they can get used to us. They growled, barked, and stared holes through us often with bared fangs - but they eventually calmed down, then lied down but never taking their eyes off us. We made occasional brief eye contact with them but remained aloof and un-intimidated.

They have not yet been spayed/neutered which we will have done in a week or two to see if they begin to trust us a little more. As it is we would not be able to get them in their kennels at all. I also know that even once they are fixed that's certainly not a solution and may not help at all, and that's not why we're doing it anyway - we simply do not have time for puppies and even if we did this is not a situation where it is in anyway wise.

Not expecting a golden bullet answer here I realize there isn't one as individual dogs all have their own traits and habits and temperaments but hoping for some ideas ans if my separation idea is good or bad. We have no experience with gsd's, but have the feeling this is one of those situations where patience & consistency are paramount, but so it a plan! What's the plan?

Thanks for any input.
 

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Did you get them from a shelter or from other owners? It sounds like these dogs need FIRM handlers that really know what they're doing. I didn't read through the entire post, as I have no experience or advice with anything to do with aggression, but hopefully someone more helpful will come along.
 

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Welcome, I myself cannot give you any advice but there are lots of people on here that I am sure can help you. :)
 

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My question is why you would adopt two agressive GDS's when you have no experience with Shepherds? What made you take them home?
 

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I think this is a situation where you may be way over your head. Contact a very good trainer/behaviorist. If you tell us where you live, I"m sure that someone on here can give you the name of a good contact.

This really isn't about GSD's as a breed. This is about adopting a pair of highly aggressive dogs. Finding a trainer with GSD experience can only help but you really need a trainer experienced with aggression.

I am wondering...

How do you feed them if you can't get near them without them behaving aggressively?
How did you get them to your house?
 

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Wow, you've taken on quite a project!

I have limited experience dealing with these types of dogs through rescue (honestly if a dog is truly people aggressive s/he never even makes it as far as rescue) but I can give you some ideas and strongly recommend finding a qualified behaviorist (who uses positive reinforcement combined with NILIF and really knows what they're doing) to help you. I wonder if you could contact Best Friends in Utah for resources? Best Friends Animal Society Home Page If you post your location people could help you find an appropriate trainer.

1) I would absolutely separate them. These types of bonded pairs (where the bonding has negative affects on behavior) are almost always separated for their own good. I'm surprised they were adopted out together. If someone else (with proper reference, vet and home check and ideally experience rehabbing gsds) can take one of them then that will work better. IF they are separated but in close proximity I think they will always be trying to get to one another. When they are separated you can get a better idea as to their individual temperaments and what kind of progress you can expect to make with rehabbing them.

2) While you are sitting out there with your cocktails I would start tossing delicious things into their area. I'm talking chopped up fresh chicken, steak, liver, etc. Do not make eye contact while you're doing this and do it randomly. Hopefully that will help them start to associate you with something really yummy.

3) I don't know what your long term expectations are but these dogs may never tolerate more than basic contact from humans. Or they may come around very, very slowly but only accept you and your spouse. I took in a neglected and abused gsd when he was 4.5 and it was years before he was anything close to a normal dog...and even then i had to be very careful with him. However, he never showed any aggression towards me or my partner at the time, just strangers.

4) Try to let go of your ideas about "dominance" and "pack leaders," especially if they are coming from Cesar Milan. Very, very few dogs (if any!) have a dominance agenda. More than likely the male is trying to protect himself and his mate from a perceived threat (you!). You will have to work very hard to earn both of their trust and the best way to do that is to make everything that comes from you super positive. And at the same time you have to keep yourselves safe!
 

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Wow, you've taken on quite a project!

I have limited experience dealing with these types of dogs through rescue (honestly if a dog is truly people aggressive s/he never even makes it as far as rescue) but I can give you some ideas and strongly recommend finding a qualified behaviorist (who uses positive reinforcement combined with NILIF and really knows what they're doing) to help you. I wonder if you could contact Best Friends in Utah for resources? Best Friends Animal Society Home Page If you post your location people could help you find an appropriate trainer.

1) I would absolutely separate them. These types of bonded pairs (where the bonding has negative affects on behavior) are almost always separated for their own good. I'm surprised they were adopted out together. If someone else (with proper reference, vet and home check and ideally experience rehabbing gsds) can take one of them then that will work better. IF they are separated but in close proximity I think they will always be trying to get to one another. When they are separated you can get a better idea as to their individual temperaments and what kind of progress you can expect to make with rehabbing them.

2) While you are sitting out there with your cocktails I would start tossing delicious things into their area. I'm talking chopped up fresh chicken, steak, liver, etc. Do not make eye contact while you're doing this and do it randomly. Hopefully that will help them start to associate you with something really yummy.

3) I don't know what your long term expectations are but these dogs may never tolerate more than basic contact from humans. Or they may come around very, very slowly but only accept you and your spouse. I took in a neglected and abused gsd when he was 4.5 and it was years before he was anything close to a normal dog...and even then i had to be very careful with him. However, he never showed any aggression towards me or my partner at the time, just strangers.

4) Try to let go of your ideas about "dominance" and "pack leaders," especially if they are coming from Cesar Milan. Very, very few dogs (if any!) have a dominance agenda. More than likely the male is trying to protect himself and his mate from a perceived threat (you!). You will have to work very hard to earn both of their trust and the best way to do that is to make everything that comes from you super positive. And at the same time you have to keep yourselves safe!
Yes to all of this.

Welcome and will be very interested in learning more about this situation!
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Thanks for all the responses - especially you BowWow that's the kind of information I was looking for.

I'm a little reluctant to give many details because I'm not wanting to start a firestorm over how I ended up with them, but in the interest of fairness i will tell most of it without naming the breeder (at least yet).

We live in a rural area where crime has become pretty serious, mostly from the many meth heads that use abandoned houses in the kind of rural area we live to cook their dope. I caught the last one who'd hit us for ~$12,500 in tools from my shop, but there's 5 more to take his place. Being empty nesters we decided to get some sure enough large dogs as an intimidation/crime prevention measure.

We finally found these dogs that seemed perfect for us, and I watched videos of them with the breeder and talked to her at least a dozen times on the phone and twice that via email. the condensed version is that either she did not represent the full degree of how vicious these dogs are, or else she simply couldn't foresee how they would react to the sudden uprooting.

She had been looking for a home that could take them together as she said she tought they would do better together. In hindsight - and for more reasons than finding out how these dogs actually behave - but in hindsight I believe this woman has some serious issues (mentally) and should not be allowed to be a breeder.

As to how we feed them, I keep them occupied at the other side of the fence while my wife fills their food and water bowls on the other side where I have built them a condo. I set it up that way deliberately thinking we wouldn't want to go into the fence with them for the first few days. Now looking like weeks or months.

My wife flew out of DFW (we live in north Texas) 4 hours one way, met the breeder at the airport nearest them and flew back with the dogs that day. We live about 2 hours north of DFW airport in a very rural area, so when my wife had phoned me after landing about how aggressive they seemed compared to what had been described, I quickly built a kennel-sized flap gate that we could release the dogs into without them being able to get at us. It went exactly as planned (as planned at the last minute).

The dogs were in their kennels for 12 hours! So we thought once they became acclimated they may do a little better within a day or two, but I don't think so now. They both seems as happy and content as can be. They have a whole continent compared to the 4 x 14 kennels where they spent most of their lives in which to run and play - and that's what they do most of the time now. They play! they seem genuinely happy and adapted already except that - they seem like they would be happier to have a human snack when we walk by.

So that's most of the story. I didn't want to tell it because I have been a member on a dog forum before and have seen how these kinds of stories drag the hot-headed, judgmental, know-it-all members out who do nothing but focus on what happened versus how to proceed. If that sounds harsh sorry but pet owners are a group which while consisting of many salt of the earth human's, also seem to consist of some of the most arrogant and immature lot I have ever seen. My aim is not to draw them by telling this story but those of you who sincerely want to help should have a clearer picture of our predicament and perhaps offer something more because of the additional info. Or maybe not since it doesn't really change the dogs.

I do appreciate all the advice even if I may not agree with it or may not be able to follow it for whatever reason. I am about as Alpha as a dog or human gets, but I'm also a deep-thinking Alpha and do not want to lessen my chances of developing the relationship with them that could work. Yes, I do realize it's possible they will never trust or respect me but I tend to have a great deal of confidence in myself and am going to proceed with this. Just collecting as much information as I can before I try to formulate a plan.
 

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i think they're reacting because they dont know you. Put on some thick clothing and sit outside their fence back to them just tossing in treats. Then increase that to only tossing in treats when they're calm like sniffing you. no growling, no barking, toss a treat. They're never going to chill out if they dont have the chance to get to know who you are. only when totally confident they wont be nasty towards you would i suggest entering with them.
 

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I really like Ruth's advice. The only thing I would add to that is to NOT throw them treats when they are being aggressive. Only do it when they have calmed down. My concern would be that you would reward them for being aggressive (at least that is how they would see it)

I'm sorry the breeder misrepresented the dogs. It's a really sad situation. I don't believe it is because they are in a new environment. I think it's how they were raised.

If possible, I would get them to a vet somehow. Maybe sedate them and have the vet out to your house? To check for thyroid, and any medical conditions that could cause aggression.

They will continue to feed off each other as long as they can see the other so s it possible to separate them so that they can not see each other?
 

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Do you think they might be acting fearfully? Working in rescue I have come across many GSD's who have not been socialised properly and charge the fence and lunge and bark at anyone coming near. Although they look like they want to 'eat' the person, they are actually very frightened and just trying to keep people away.

I don't see that a dog trying to be 'dominant' would carry on like that when there was no threat and especially when they are not on their home territory (so not being protective).

The way I got round some of the very aggressive shepherds we had in was to spend a long time just sitting really quietly by the fence in a submissive as possible position (sometimes curled up) so as not to appear a threat. Every now and then I would throw some high valued treats in. Eventually every one of those dogs would start to calm down and I managed to make friends with all of them. Although for some I was the only person who could go near them, and that might be the case with your guys as they have had many years of presumably behaving like this around strange people.


Good luck with them, maybe you could post some video of them so people could get a better idea of their behaviour? Some frightened dogs are very very good at making it look like they aren't.
 

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I agree with separating them. It is sad to do so because they are used to each other and play with each other, but they need to become reliant on you and your wife so until that happens, they should be in separated little continents.

I think that it may help to crate the dogs part of the day. At least get them in the crate to feed them while you take care of cleaning their kennels. You need to be the provider of all that is good, and that includes freedom. But only do this if you can devise a safe method of transfer.

I think you need to go slow with them. Stay calm, consistant, and firm. Start with tossing the good stuff in as they have mentioned, but after they seem to understand that goodies are coming, start looking at them when you toss the goodies -- not staring, just looking and waiting for them to be calm before tossing. Then ask for a sit or a down. Use hand motions and voice commands. Make them work for it.

You will need a LOT of patience to manage this task. I think that it would come about quicker if you had just one or the other of them. That is a decision that only you can make, as aggressive as they are, there are not many options for them.
 

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I agree they are probably fearful, but fearful dogs will still attack and bite.
You say you just got them, within days, or a week?
I'd let them decompress, get use to their surrroundings and make your appearances as pleasant and positive as possible.
I also agree with separating them, especially if they are both intact.
Once they've gotten use to you and your wife, I think they'll come around.
Speak quietly to them, or go sit by the kennel and read out loud, that will help them to see you aren't a threat to them.
Hopefully you can get with a highly recommended behaviorist(even if it is phone consult) to give you help with these two.
Please keep us updated, it will be interesting to follow along with their progress(I have faith that they will come around!)
 

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I am about as Alpha as a dog or human gets,
I think I understand what you're saying, but please understand that the idea of "alphas" has been completely debunked within the wolf and respected dog behaviorist community. Those who STILL advocate this idea aren't people that you want to model yourself after.

Dogs need structure. They thrive when there are clear and fair rules. Boundaries are necessary, and consistency is an absolute must. So when you say that you're a deep thinker, let's move in that direction. Alpha implies a top-down enforcement (with emphasis on the word "force" in the middle of that) of rules.

In this thread http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/145834-when-muzzle-necessary.html I spoke about the use of medicine as one more tool to assist us in training dogs. (I won't repeat everything I said there). I'm not someone that is big on pushing drugs on dogs (or people for that matter). I'm a pragmatist. I believe that we look at the dog in front of us and we look at ALL of the options in front of us and we select those tools that best work for this particular dog to resolve this particular issue (or train that particular behavior). After speaking with numerous trainers and behaviorists, I've just come to realize that pharmaceuticals can be helpful in dealing especially with aggression and that we shouldn't wait.

Most respected dog behaviorists believe that the natural state of dogs is to be peace-seeking. They naturally live in packs and intermingle freely. I believe that aggressive dogs aren't particularly happy dogs; they feel stressed often (if not constantly). If, in fact, the breeder wasn't all there mentally and behaved erratically, they may have felt little or no control over their environment. It may be that they're temperamentally (genetically) weak-nerved. It may be that they weren't socialized at all. It may be all three or something else entirely. Regardless, of how they got here, they're here. Interactions with humans -- which is a mandatory part of their lives as domestic dogs -- freaks them out. That stress creates more cortisol, which in turn makes them feel more stressed. It's a self-perpetuating cycle.

If we can alter that (the actual physical reaction) even somewhat, it's a kindness to them AND it helps us train them, which helps them feel more in control of the environment, which decreases their stress level. The cycle, instead of escalating, can start to diminish.

Thyroid panels for aggression have been discussed at length all over the internet. I've talked to A LOT of trainers and vets about them. It's worth running the thyroid, of course, but few professionals that I've met have had dogs that the thyroid (even with Jean Dodd's input) made a big difference. Sometimes it does. It's definitely worth doing; especially if these are siblings, there could be genetic hypothyroidism at work. But while you're at the vet's office getting the thyroid panel done, I would ask about behavioral meds as well.

As much as possible, I would ask the vet to perform a full exam (the dogs will have to be muzzled). These dogs may have severe orthopedic issues that cause pain or other issues (urinary tract infections and GI issues can be very painful as well) that are causing them to self-protect. I can't imagine that would cause them to be so aggressive, in and of itself, but could be a contributing factor.

AND, I would follow Ruth's excellent advice. :)

ETA: One more thought: the excellent book: Chill Out Fido by Nan Arthur discusses some other influences that could cause arousal in dogs. It's too early for you do to the exercises in it. But you may want to pick it up and take a look at it.

Actually, another thought, if you aren't already, I would put these dogs on fish oil (with vitamin E), which is good for the brain, especially the prefrontal cortex, where decision-making is done. Ask your vet for info.
 

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I agree with the point about timing the yummy food tosses. Wait until they are calm and then do it. There are lots of good books out there for working with aggressive dogs. Check out dogwise.com for a good selection.

Also, per the excellent advice above, please rethink the alpha stuff. I think most people would characterize me as having a very alpha personality but I don't have a dominance agenda with my dogs. When I adopted my first gsd I thought that was really important but now I see that it's counterproductive, especially when dealing with dogs that have major issues.

Finally, if you had walked by my yard when Basu was out you would have sworn he was going to tear your face off. In fact, a friend of mine used him in a movie because he looked so vicious. Other people apparently avoided walking past our house b/c he was so scary. The truth was that he was fearful from being under-socialized and mistreated and he had some territorial aggression too.

Keep asking questions and keep an open mind.
 

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My perception of what alpha means, is probably not as accurate as it is within a community such as this, so I won't try to hang on to that bone. My first attempt at humor haha. But seriously I thought alpha in this context simply meant "leader". I have never associated alpha exclusively with dominance. Although I probably do get the mixed up. For instance when I said the female "dominates" the male in this pair, maybe I should have put more thought into it but it's clear to anyone, layman or professor of the topic that she most certainly does both.

I wonder if it could be one of those instances where something which says essentially the same thing, has been re-named or vaguely re-written due to any number of outside influences? I guess that's going too off topic just sort of thinking out loud.

I wasn't expecting such a flood of replies with so much fantastic advice, I must say it's a pleasant surprise. Already I have much to digest and consider, but I'll share this ne short story with you all that just took place. Part of their fenced in area extends past the back of our house. I was standing at the back door talking with my wife and about to walk back to my shop which means I pass by them within a few feet. This is when they always raise their most fervent protests. Before I started my journey an idea hit me and I shared it with my wife.

I'd noticed they had stopped barking when we were discussing this evening's plans and ignoring them. I said to her that she should remain at the back door and as I approached the shop, and the second they started barking and snarling I would stop and turn and we would continue to converse - not paying them any attention. They started almost immediately as began my walk and took another step, turned, and we started talking again. They stopped barking within a second or two and so we discussed in matter of fact tones how this was a major progression. As I talked to her shielding my face from the setting sun, she was describing to me what they were doing. She said they were beginning to wag their tails! So we talked another 30 seconds and I slowly turned again never making eye contact and they began to bark again. I stopped, turned to my wife, and we began talking again. this time they stopped barking almost before the first word was out of my mouth, and my wife said to me "They are lying down and looking at you and wagging their tails." Well I could harldy believe it so I turned and glanced at them quickly, lying there 10' away and sure enough they were lying down looking at me with wagging tails.

So I said to my wife, "I'm going to keep talking to you and slowly back toward the fence as I talk" and I got to within a foot or two of the fence where they were lying, and they never said a peep. My wife said "Well I swear they are smiling now too. Tails still wagging." So I finished talking to her and spun and walked to the shop. They did not bark at me again. I know they will when I go back out but still I think that was a major breakthrough. I guess they perceived that as long as my wife and I were talking to each other and not paying them any attention that they were under no threat?
 

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I think you need a couple of good books, that clearly describe dog behavior and body language as well as some good leadership techniques. Patricia McConnel might be a good one to go for.

I think that on of the books talks about ignoring the dog for three days (maybe not McConnel, not sure, maybe the book called the dog whisperer). Basically, you attend to the dogs needs, but completely ignore the dog, then after three days, the dog will join up with you -- it is definitely more involved than that, but it is positive -- no harsh punishments, etc. But the dog joins up with you as the leader, not the other way around.

I think a lot of the time, the biggest mistake people make around unknown dogs is to pay attention to them. My sister, who has no pets, pets seem to gravitate to her wherever she goes because she totally does not make any overtures toward them. They choose to trust her without her trying at all.

But any of this really requires the dogs to be in need of attention. These kennel dogs have lived for so long with so little attention, that just having the other dog in there is enough for them. They will have no incentive to join up with you as the leader, if they have their buddy with them all the time.

Even separating their kennels should make a difference.

Just thinking out loud here.
 

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I think you are exactly right!

What you may not realize is that you've stumbled upon a sophisticated training technique. You're moving to where the dog is what we call "sub-threshold" (below the level or "threshold" where they would react to you), waiting for them to become comfortable with you, then -- and only then -- moving closer. You've removed other variables (eye contact, speaking to the dog, additional movement) and just concentrated on ONE variable -- proximity to the dogs.

This is something that a lot of professional trainers have a hard time understanding, but you've intuited it. That's phenomenal. As you continue to work them, keep in mind that as you change (or add) variables, we'll need to back up and start all over -- way back where they're sub-threshhold. It's kind of like someone who is afraid of crawly things. We can introduce them to bugs, starting with lady bugs and working up to big beetles, until they're comfortable with those. But when we want to introduce them to spiders, we're not going to bring out a big hairy tarantula. We're going to bring out a tiny spider and start all over until we eventually get to the biggest hairiest spider we can find. Changing variables changes the game, especially with dogs that don't generalize well under the best of conditions.

(A puppy doesn't understand that "sit" in the kitchen means "sit" in the living room; and he certainly doesn't understand that it means "sit" at the park. We have to train all of these. It takes about 15-20 different places -- or different variables -- before a dog generalizes a new skill)

What I would love for you to do is separate the dogs and do the same thing. This way, you'll be able to desensitize each at his/her own rate. It may be that the male is easier to desensitize but responds to the female's reactions, or visa versa. It's very hard to train two dogs at the same time, especially when it comes to aggression issues (I'd say completely impossible, but there may be a very gifted trainer out there who can do it).

What I'd also love for you to do is when you approach and the dog remains calm is toss a treat into the kennel over your shoulder. Your aim will have to be pretty good, since you're not looking at the kennel, but you have a pretty big area to work with. You want to use HIGH value treats. Where I live, we have Costco, and they sell pre-made meatballs, steak, roasted chicken breast, all beef hot dogs, that I use for especially challenging training. I presume you can find something similar at Sam's Club or a similar store near you, if you don't have Costco nearby. I also like to mix up my treats (I freeze the extras so I always have some on hand). This way, my dogs never know what to expect. Steak is nice, but steak day after day isn't nearly as great as a varied menu. The idea is that we want your dogs to start to HOPE that you approach them... that they wait around, wondering when you'll show up, because you're the guy with the great loot, and wondering what they'll be fed is as wonderful as being fed good stuff to begin with.

Also, for now, I would just work with you approaching. Let them get comfortable with you before you switch roles with your wife. It's human nature to want to want to get everyone involved, but as one of my friends (who is a trainer) likes to say, "Slow is Fast." If we make a lot of progress but switch too fast, then we've set ourselves back and the dogs may not feel like they can trust you. Better to move slowly. Let them know they can REALLY trust you. Then start all over with your wife and let her build up trust with them.

One thing at a time. :)

Ultimately, dogs co-evolved with humans. It's deep in their genes to work with humans. It can be VERY hard to get down to that level where they remember on a genetic level that humans are their partners. Sometimes, unfortunately, we can't. But it seems like these two have it in them. That's excellent news. We just need to take it slow.

And, what are their names? I'd prefer to refer to them by their names rather than "the male" and "the female." :hug:
 

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Sue has a point about learning dog "language." A swishing tail and a grimacing dog could look like a wagging tail and a grinning dog if you're not familiar with dog body language (but swishing and grimacing are signs that the dog is very stressed and could be about to attack). If the dogs were lying down and seemed calm, they probably were. But given that these two are aggressive, it's better to be well informed.

I really like these two books. You can buy either or both. Amazon and Dogwise have both and Dogwise has a shopworn copy of Aloff's that's shopworn on clearance, which is a great deal.

CANINE BODY LANGUAGE - A PHOTOGRAPHIC GUIDE
by Brenda Aloff

CANINE BEHAVIOR - A PHOTO ILLUSTRATED HANDBOOK
Barbara Handelman


Since I'm mentioning Aloff, this is a good book:

AGGRESSION IN DOGS - PRACTICAL MANAGEMENT, PREVENTION & BEHAVIOUR MODIFICATION
Brenda Aloff


I'm not a big fan of ignoring dogs. These two seem to be suffering from a lack of quality human interaction. Personally, I wouldn't propound ignoring dogs with that sort of history. They're responding positively to you right now. Do we really want for you to be yet another human that disappoints them? I guess I'm just showing my bias. :) But I prefer to reach out to dogs that are severely struggling. There IS time to negatively punish unwanted behavior (to take away something he likes if he does something unwanted). I do believe that (and I use that technique when appropriate). But if the dog has no idea what you want to begin with? Well, I wouldn't. It's like being arrested and tossed in jail without being told what the charges are. Maybe it will make you more submissive. But just as likely, it will make you as mad as heck... And it's not fair. As we discussed before, leadership is about being fair.


Anyhow, IMHO. :eek:
 

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I think you've gotten some wonderful advice, and I commend you for taking on these two,,I'm thinking I'd be mighty peeved and not sure I would want to tackle this. However it sounds like your making PROGRESS!

One thing I wanted to mention, I know your planning on neutering/spaying, I would try to get that done asap, before an unwanted pregnancy happens:((

I'm kind of on the fence with separating them right now, I might have missed how long you've had them??? I agree with letting them decompress, get more comfortable with their surroundings, tho I also agree that working them separately would probably be more helpful, I just don't think I'd separate them right at this moment...

Good luck , sounds like a project and I'm sure you'll learn alot,,please keep us [email protected]
 
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