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Discussion Starter #1
Last night Shasta and i were walking from the house over the the C-store (gas station/convienance) on housing to return a couple of redbox DVDs. There was this guy walking his German Wirehaired Pointer. He asked to meet Shasta and if the dogs could meet. Supposedly his pointer is a military working dog dropout. He's only a year and a half old and the dog has a lot of drive so i'm not exactly sure how he washed out.

Anyway, the guys turns out to be one of the base veterinarians. Whats the story we always get from a vet? They ask if the dog is fixed. No? Well you should spay her before her first heat cycle so she has less risk to develope mammary cancers. The risk is blah blah percentage vs. blah blah percentage.

Shasta is 8 months old. I have no intention of having her spayed until she is at LEAST 18 months old. I want her to reach her full size like she's supposed to. Those horomones help greatly not having a stunted shepherd. The way i see it, the risks of getting her spayed vs. not having her spayed before her first heat are about the same. She's gonna get sick, then she's gonna get sick. Its just in the cards.

Then he proceeded to tell me if our 6 year old male (Riley, who was at home with hubby and the kids) wasnt neutered, he needed to be to prevent aggression issues. Riley was neutered when he was 6 months old because he was rescued. He didnt stop growing and still looks pretty feminine despite being mixed until earlier this year.

Don't get me wrong. the guy was really nice and his dog was pretty cool. I dont get to see very many german wirehaired pointers who are strictly pets/jogging partners so it was nice to meet him. I just dont appreciate someone standing there telling me all this. I'm the dogs owner. I'm aware of the risks ( i know a lot of people arent) and i've made what i feel is an informed decision. I dont care if you are a vet or not. He admitted he doesnt like practicing internal medicine and is more interested in surgery so basically he wanted another surgery case. But seriously, dont try to talk me into something i'm not ready for my dog to have yet. UGH!!! Some vets are really cool about it. Other vets are annoying about it!
 

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I think it works the other way around though. If you alter before the growth plates close, the long bones will continue to grow a bit and can produce a taller, leggier dog. Secondary sex characteristics might not be as pronounced, so you may end up with a bitchy dog.

Vets will tell you to speuter, no doubt about it. I heard my vet spouting to someone about spaying, and saying but if they do not then we have those old age diseases. Well, I wanted to say, at least they made it to old age.

Whatever. They must have altered 75% of the dogs on the planet by now, THEY certainly do not want to think that it is harmful.
 

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i was just annoyed. I cant stand when someone continues to try and talk me into something like a surgery i dont want to pay for yet because i want my dog to develope properly in the correct time frame. Regardless of what the vet medical journals say, that guy wanted a surgery. plain and simple. We wont be here when Shasta is at the age i want to spay her so it wont matter but good lord he was pushing hard! "i'll even let you read the journals!" I dont freaking care about the journals. Whatever i guess. Owner preference. My dogs get the overload on shots because we have to in order to live on base with them. Otherwise they wouldnt get all the unneccesary shots. We cant even do the immunity tests showing they're still good. They have to get the shots done. ticks me off.
 

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i was just annoyed. I cant stand when someone continues to try and talk me into something like a surgery i dont want to pay for yet because i want my dog to develope properly in the correct time frame. Regardless of what the vet medical journals say, that guy wanted a surgery. plain and simple. We wont be here when Shasta is at the age i want to spay her so it wont matter but good lord he was pushing hard! "i'll even let you read the journals!" I dont freaking care about the journals. Whatever i guess. Owner preference. My dogs get the overload on shots because we have to in order to live on base with them. Otherwise they wouldnt get all the unneccesary shots. We cant even do the immunity tests showing they're still good. They have to get the shots done. ticks me off.
Next time, ask if he'll do it for free. Or if it's not a vet pushing the surgery, ask if they'll pay for it, and make sure you pad the estimate. :D

How did dogs get along for thousands of years before surgery was invented?
 

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Next time, ask if he'll do it for free. Or if it's not a vet pushing the surgery, ask if they'll pay for it, and make sure you pad the estimate. :D

How did dogs get along for thousands of years before surgery was invented?

:D i'll try to remember that. I know its bound to happen again. haha. i'd like to know how they survived without surgery too.... i mean sheesh.... that must have been tough! lol.
 

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i was just annoyed. I cant stand when someone continues to try and talk me into something like a surgery i dont want to pay for yet because i want my dog to develope properly in the correct time frame. Regardless of what the vet medical journals say, that guy wanted a surgery. plain and simple. We wont be here when Shasta is at the age i want to spay her so it wont matter but good lord he was pushing hard! "i'll even let you read the journals!" I dont freaking care about the journals. Whatever i guess. Owner preference. My dogs get the overload on shots because we have to in order to live on base with them. Otherwise they wouldnt get all the unneccesary shots. We cant even do the immunity tests showing they're still good. They have to get the shots done. ticks me off.
I don't wish to argue with you but . . . Usually vets don't need to go drumming up surgeries. If the DO then it isn't going to be a regular ho-hum spay that takes 15 minutes to complete. It is going to be a laproscopic gastropexy or something exciting like that. But, maybe the on base vets are different?
 

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Thank goodness you received such enlightenment on your walk! Bet you've never heard of spay/neuter before, have you?! Good thing you ran into him.:rolleyes:
 

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My female is hardly stunted, having been spayed at 5 months. Met a female that was over a year and in heat and my girl made the other one look like a puppy. I am glad that people often mistake her for a male because I don't like the look of bitchy bitches, although she definitely looks like a female.
 

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I don't blame you for being annoyed. I'm not one who likes to be "preached" to about things so I know the feeling. And, I don't blame you for wanting to wait to have her spayed. I'm waiting until 18 months to have Deuce neutered for the same reason :)
 

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They must have altered 75% of the dogs on the planet by now,.
If this were the case, there wouldn't be millions being put to sleep in American shelters alone and who knows how many everywhere else.

I will preach spay/neuter for one reason and one reason alone: curb the dog and cat population. Now, I'm not a neuter-nazi by any means, but I will politely suggest it to anyone with an intact animal.
 

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I think it works the other way around though. If you alter before the growth plates close, the long bones will continue to grow a bit and can produce a taller, leggier dog. Secondary sex characteristics might not be as pronounced, so you may end up with a bitchy dog.

My female is hardly stunted, having been spayed at 5 months. Met a female that was over a year and in heat and my girl made the other one look like a puppy. I am glad that people often mistake her for a male because I don't like the look of bitchy bitches, although she definitely looks like a female.
I agree with Selzer. I think early spaying/neutering tends to produce a leggier dog than waiting until fully matured. They don't "fill out" quite the same way as the dogs that are spayed/neutered later in life.

Raven was spayed at 6 months and she is very tall and lean compared to other dogs who tend me a bit shorter and stockier (and correct).
 

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I am choosing to wait till Lakota is about 18 months. I have been preached to as well. What it all comes down to is there are responsible people and irresponsible people and I agree 100% that most people should have their dogs spayed/neutered ASAP. I can assure you that my girl will not get pregnant unless it is via immaculate conception.
 

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If it's so healthy, how come we don't spay and neuter people?
It really annoys me how they misuse stats to guilt owners into spaying and neutering. Yes, ovarian cancer is 100% reduced but how many other diseases are INCREASED because we mess with their hormones? Hemangiosarcoma is increased >5x in an early spayed dog...
Why don't we pull out some other organs they're not really using because they might get cancer?
IMO, this is just a vet's way or drumming up future business.
When I had this discussion with our (male) vet about having Jax neutered he started to go on about pet overpopulation... I told him birth control is the woman's responsiblity... he had no idea what to say :D
 

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I agree with Selzer. I think early spaying/neutering tends to produce a leggier dog than waiting until fully matured. They don't "fill out" quite the same way as the dogs that are spayed/neutered later in life.

Raven was spayed at 6 months and she is very tall and lean compared to other dogs who tend me a bit shorter and stockier (and correct).
Jax too. In fact, when i asked if it would harm her growth, my vet told me that she would be "bigger" if spayed early.

Someone just commented on how narrow she was this past weekend. He had "been around shepherds all his life" :rolleyes: and said she wasn't big enough, even though she's almost 25" tall and 65 lbs. There's always one. :wild:
 

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I don't really blame the vet, the majority of dog owners out they see are probably clueless/uninformed so that is probably what the vet is used to seeing... IMO it is better for dogs to be s/n early than to end up with "oops" puppies because their owners don't know better. Obviously this does not apply to you-- but the vet had no way to know that.

As far as stunting their growth, early s/n does not cause stunted growth. Early s/n actually causes the growth plates to close later, not earlier. Research has shown a slight difference in bone length (2 cm longer in radius/ulna) for dogs s/n early.
In males there may be a decrease in secondary sex characteristics (they may look more like an immature male in appearance) but I think that is not seen as much in females since it's caused by testosterone levels in males development.

I'm not sure what benefits there are to spaying a female at 18 months though. Most of the health concerns with spaying I've heard about for females are just caused by spaying in general, no matter what age. I know with males there is increased risk of bone cancer in early s/n but I'm pretty sure that was just males, not females.
 

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i've never had a dog neutered and my
dogs have never had problem socially or
medically. whenever people star talking
about neutering i always think, show dogs aren't neutered.

:D i'll try to remember that. I know its bound to happen again. haha. i'd like to know how they survived without surgery too.... i mean sheesh.... that must have been tough! lol.
Next time, ask if he'll do it for free. Or if it's not a vet pushing the surgery, ask if they'll pay for it, and make sure you pad the estimate. :D

How did dogs get along for thousands of years before surgery was invented?
 

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Jax too. In fact, when i asked if it would harm her growth, my vet told me that she would be "bigger" if spayed early.

Someone just commented on how narrow she was this past weekend. He had "been around shepherds all his life" :rolleyes: and said she wasn't big enough, even though she's almost 25" tall and 65 lbs. There's always one. :wild:
Raven's narrow too but she's 78-80lbs and people still tell me she's skinny all the time!! I've never measured how tall she is though, I'll try tonight.
 

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I think their legs throw people off. :) Proportionally, she's just right except her legs are long and it might make them look even thinner?
 

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If this were the case, there wouldn't be millions being put to sleep in American shelters alone and who knows how many everywhere else.

I will preach spay/neuter for one reason and one reason alone: curb the dog and cat population. Now, I'm not a neuter-nazi by any means, but I will politely suggest it to anyone with an intact animal.
Sure there would. The adults dogs that are spayed and neutered have to go somewhere after their owners get bored of them.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
i want my dogs to fill out how they're supposed and WHEN they're supposed to. I dont want to spay or neuter early because of this. and the vet flat out admitted he was only interested in surgery. The base vet didnt DO surgery until this vet got stationed here which is recently as he wasnt there until just after Shasta's final set of puppy shots. I have absolutely no desire to have a litter of puppies in the house. None at all. Far more work and cleaning than i care to deal with. A single puppy in the house is enough right now.

as far as growth slowing down because of a spay/neuter done early, i dont want that either. Shelby isn't fixed and she's 18 months old and looking like she should. Riley was neutered at 6 months and he is VERY feminine and tall. He didnt STOP growing up or filling out until earlier this year. People who have zero knowledge and are irresponsible, i would encourage to alter their dogs early. considering when Shelby was in heat this past time, she wore a diaper in the house and was on a leash when outside to go potty and no walks or anything outside beyond potty breaks, i've got the no litters from my dog thing covered. I just wanted to smack this vet by the time we were done "talking". There are risks with not altering and there are risks with altering. its iffy either way. My females get altered when they're 18 months -2 years old simply because i have no intention of breeding them and i dont want to deal with the heat cycles if i dont have to. i'd prefer NOT to have my males altered at all. They dont bleed all over the place and unless they're undecended, i honestly dont see the point. Personal opinions and all.
 
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