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Discussion Starter #1
Have you heard of this and what do you think of it? I ran into it when researching breeders of a different breed that are raised with these practices. Some are what we are already doing, like feeding raw and not speutering because a dog has turned 6 months old. But some seem extreme, like no vaccines, no crates, no flea control, no medications, no scents of any kind in the home, only organic bedding, no separation at all from your dog. I found a few sites that explain it, and it looks like each site has some differences.

https://www.naturalrearing.com/coda/learning.html#landing
 

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Sounds more like neglect in some ways. There is no natural way to raise a dog unless you practice the ancient way; "survival of the fittest", which would kill most of our domestic dogs.
 

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I don't know. I think a good place to start is for those of us who are no longer spring chickens to look back to when a lot of this was normal for many dogs and compare it to what we are seeing today.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I don't know. I think a good place to start is for those of us who are no longer spring chickens to look back to when a lot of this was normal for many dogs and compare it to what we are seeing today.
That is where they started, with a middle aged dog that passed of old age diseases. I agree with some of their assertions but it’s not possible to avoid vaccinations legally and what about parvo?
 

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So, you want to go back to when whole litters died of distemper and other preventable diseases?
Or how about when dogs spread rabies to humans?

The link I clicked on is talking about using small amounts of a pathogen to trigger immunity. Current vaccines mostly contain killed viruses. I hate to think what would happen if someone tried giving their dog a small amount of a live rabies virus!

Sorry, the antivax crowd gets my drawers in a knot. My great uncle, a healthy man in his prime, succumbed to the 1918 flu. A friend in high school had polio as an infant. She was one of the lucky ones: she could still walk and talk and breathe without the help of an iron lung.

Doing titers, fine. I'm okay with that. But homeopathy is junk science.
 

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I have a dog who boards here who is an anti vaxxer, raw fed, western medicine is evil, etc.

She began to have severe lameness. It eventually came out that she has beem diagnosed wih Lyme awhile back but owner refused to treat because antibiotics are evil and the dog will heal itself and so on.

Well the lameness finally got so bad it sidelined her sport career and the owner broke down a treated her but they ran some bloodwork first and her lyme numbers were thru the roof. Lameness and other issues totally resolved with treatment. This dog suffered for nearly a year unnecessarily.

I've had another one come to board with herbs that were supposedly treating her Lyme infection.

This stuff drives me crazy. Within reason, folks! Everything needs to be combined with common sense. ALL traditional veterinary medicine is not evil and gosh but those perscription diets full of grains can really help sometimes.

I don't knock anybody feeding raw or even minimal vax, but everything within reason and a dash of common sense!

And yeah, you don't want to vaccinate or do parasite prevention but you still want to board your dog when you go on vacation? Sorry, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

I literally had a woman get furious with me about vaccinating her dogs to board. Look, hire a pet sitter then! You don't want to get state mandated vaccines...no problem, stay home, don't yell at me about it!
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I’ve read more on pages I didn’t post because it involved breeders. They recommend not kenneling your dogs so you must have someone come into your home. They also recommend never leaving your dogs alone. How realistic is that?

My vet uses herbs but when mine were sick, they were given antibiotics. There is a way to be holistic to boost natural immunity vs unrealistic expectations.

I see nothing wrong with titers. I was actually thinking about a dog from one of these breeders until I realized I could not pass their enormous application process. The questions were very intrusive and I got the feeling if even one answer was “wrong” you were off their list. I can’t post it because of breeder bashing. I’m sure they are good breeders, but with extremely rigid requirements. They are NOT GSDs.
 

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If your dog is not vaccinated and not getting sick it is not because he is healthier than any other dog but because all other dogs are vaccinated (herd immunity) and not able to transmit disease.
(This may open up a can of worms though).
 

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I’ve read more on pages I didn’t post because it involved breeders. They recommend not kenneling your dogs so you must have someone come into your home. They also recommend never leaving your dogs alone. How realistic is that?

My vet uses herbs but when mine were sick, they were given antibiotics. There is a way to be holistic to boost natural immunity vs unrealistic expectations.

I see nothing wrong with titers. I was actually thinking about a dog from one of these breeders until I realized I could not pass their enormous application process. The questions were very intrusive and I got the feeling if even one answer was “wrong” you were off their list. I can’t post it because of breeder bashing. I’m sure they are good breeders, but with extremely rigid requirements. They are NOT GSDs.
Yes, I have walked away from two breeders who were very strict about this type of stuff, one to the point of total absurdity. I mean they might as well not sell the puppies at all the way they demanded to micromanage the owner. You had to agree to only use a holistic vet approved by them. Really? So I'm going to drive 2 hours there every time my dog needs a vet? That's ridiculous. I drive 2 hours to the referral hospital when there's a crisis- maybe once a year hopefully not.

Titers are fine but I've titered my dogs a few times and found they had no coverage when according to the accepted recommendations they really should have. So that's fine if you want to titer, I stopped because I was spending a lot of money to find out they still needed the vaccines and it was a waste and in the mean time my dogs did not have immunity.

I made my own dog suffer because I didn't want them to put her on steroids and I tried every natural remedy in the book and none of it worked. Finally I broke down and put her on the steroids and she does not suffer anymore. There are some annoying side effects but her quality of life is thru the roof better than prior and I'd go so far as to say she wouldn't be with me still if she had not gotten symptom relief. I had a preconceived notion about her being on steroids.

Other things are falling apart and failing now but she's about to turn 13 and still is symptom free for what the steroids treat and she and I had TONS of fun doing stuff together in the mean time that we could not have done if she had not been treated.
 

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True on the steroids, we're going thru that with moo also. The vet weaned him off a couple times because of the adverse effects they can cause but he'd go right back to the problems, dementia type symptoms. He's now on a regimen that he'll be on for the rest of his life. Like said above, it's given us a good summer, he still loves a car ride and slow easy walk at the park.
 

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That is where they started, with a middle aged dog that passed of old age diseases. I agree with some of their assertions but it’s not possible to avoid vaccinations legally and what about parvo?
I do a puppy protocol, booster a year later, then vax two more times at 3 year intervals. I find that my dogs and cats have far more side effects if vaccinated beyond that age. My dogs don't lack exposure to other dogs and I have had no problems. I also take young puppies out for plenty of exposure, I don't wait until they have had their big boy shots. I can't say if I am doing something right or just lucky.

One thing I remember from long ago, an old school vet told me that you only need the puppy protocol and the one year booster and you should never need to vaccinate again as the dog will be continually exposed to those diseases throughout its life resulting in reactivating its immune system over and over.

Personally, I never did a lot of research on vaccinations but it only seems like common sense that vaccines should last a lot longer than one year. Who knows? I am not a vet, nor do I have a medical background.
 

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So, you want to go back to when whole litters died of distemper and other preventable diseases?
Or how about when dogs spread rabies to humans?

The link I clicked on is talking about using small amounts of a pathogen to trigger immunity. Current vaccines mostly contain killed viruses. I hate to think what would happen if someone tried giving their dog a small amount of a live rabies virus!

Sorry, the antivax crowd gets my drawers in a knot. My great uncle, a healthy man in his prime, succumbed to the 1918 flu. A friend in high school had polio as an infant. She was one of the lucky ones: she could still walk and talk and breathe without the help of an iron lung.

Doing titers, fine. I'm okay with that. But homeopathy is junk science.
Not saying it didn't happen, but I never heard of a litter dying from anything back then. People did not get puppy shots or any shots, so yea, after rehoming distemper was not unheard of.

Dogs still spread rabies to humans. We had a local dog who had his rabies shot as a pup, had his booster a later, and was coming due for another booster when it got in a fight with a rabid raccoon and despite being up to date with its rabies, it still contradicted rabies and that was only a couple of years ago in the city to boot. I would not be too complacent about a dog being current on shots and being 100% immune from anything.
 

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I made my own dog suffer because I didn't want them to put her on steroids and I tried every natural remedy in the book and none of it worked. Finally I broke down and put her on the steroids and she does not suffer anymore. There are some annoying side effects but her quality of life is thru the roof better than prior and I'd go so far as to say she wouldn't be with me still if she had not gotten symptom relief. I had a preconceived notion about her being on steroids.

Other things are falling apart and failing now but she's about to turn 13 and still is symptom free for what the steroids treat and she and I had TONS of fun doing stuff together in the mean time that we could not have done if she had not been treated.
My (very old school) vet who is virtually retired now :( is a proponent of steroids used appropriately. Towards the end of her life Sneaker was on pred for the duration, and has he explained, he wouldn't put a young dog on them long term, but when you're talking about a geriatric dog "long term" isn't really that long. They do have side affects but they are also a very effective anti inflammatory, and personally I'd rather use something with some risks that works, even if those potential risks may ultimately shorten the dog's life. Quality vs quantity, always. And actually, Sneaker lived to 14-1/2.
 

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With all the modern medicine and miracles we have at our disposal this day and age, it is a shame not to use everything we can to keep our pets happy and comfortable. I agree with being cautious, but extremism of any sort isn’t good, whether you are a kill a fly with a bazooka type of person or whether you are the type that refuses any sort of medical treatment.
Moderation is the way to go, in my opinion.
 

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No thanks! There is nothing natural in rearing a pup. Humans domesticated dogs, before that, they were not meant to be in homes. So “natural rearing” sounds like some hippy granola crap spewed out by people I imagine smell pretty badly. Probably a horrible stereotype, but that was my first thought. I mean, to each his own, but as much as I love my dogs, they irritate the ever living crap out of me sometimes, and by sometimes I mean on a daily basis. I love dog company, on my terms. To never leave a dog alone, and not crate? It’s for the dogs safety, I can’t be home 24/7, and if I came home or woke up to a trashed house, I’d probably snap once and for all.

I’ve experienced distemper in pups, it’s the worse way I’ve ever seen an animal die. And to willing open pups up to that possibility makes me angry and sad.

We do the puppy shots, a one year rabies, and a one year booster. After that, we do not vaccinate without a titer, and I haven’t had to vaccinate Lyka ever, but I still gave her the yearly booster once. And we do flea/tick/heart worm prevention. Is it because I’m well educated when it comes to vaccines? Nope. I’ve just witnessed too much from unvaccinated dogs that could have been prevented with regular vet care.

I feed what normal dog owners would probably scream over the price of the food. And half of the members here would probably take the other stance and say I’m not feeding high quality kibble. I use Fromm, and am slowly switching to Victor’s. I’m sure the cost of raw would not be cost beneficial to me, so I do the best I feel comfortable with. Do the dogs care if they get Pedigree or Alpo, of course not, they eat whatever you give them, and I’m sure people feeding Pedigree feel like they are doing the best for their dogs, and I’m not going to judge. It’s what all the Rotts were raised on 20yrs ago with no health issues and lived the expected life range. It makes ME feel better to feed more expensive brands because I’ve convinced myself that it’s better, which is exactly what 90% of petfood companies market for!

Really, to each their own, but don’t apply your beliefs to my dogs, and we have no problems! And I won’t apply my beliefs to your dogs. Debates? Heck yes, I love those, but to me it’s like religion, the more someone tried to shove their differing beliefs down my throat, the stronger I get in my own beliefs. But a debate, I’m always willing to learn new things!
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I do a puppy protocol, booster a year later, then vax two more times at 3 year intervals. I find that my dogs and cats have far more side effects if vaccinated beyond that age. My dogs don't lack exposure to other dogs and I have had no problems. I also take young puppies out for plenty of exposure, I don't wait until they have had their big boy shots. I can't say if I am doing something right or just lucky.

One thing I remember from long ago, an old school vet told me that you only need the puppy protocol and the one year booster and you should never need to vaccinate again as the dog will be continually exposed to those diseases throughout its life resulting in reactivating its immune system over and over.

Personally, I never did a lot of research on vaccinations but it only seems like common sense that vaccines should last a lot longer than one year. Who knows? I am not a vet, nor do I have a medical background.
They may last longer but immunity may not be 100%. People also have some immunities but need to be revaccinated for some diseases. There is a national frenzy to get shingles vaccines. I was at the pharmacy and heard them tell someone they have a huge waiting list for shots because the manufacturer can’t supply enough. Who ever even thought of shingles shots ten years ago?
 

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I had a Great Dane boarding at my kennel. She had a very large dog dish, and I'd fill the dish completely twice a day for her - with Ol' Roy. She was still borderline skinny.

I suggested to the owner that she might actually save money on dog food if she switched to a better, more nutrient dense food.
 

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I looked at Kojak's book the other day, and I saw that his rabies vaccination was due in 2018. I panicked. I called the vet today and asked them to look him up and tell me when he is due. Somehow I did not put his new rabies cert in his book, so now I have to go find it.

I believe vaccinations last a lot longer than 3 years, and I wouldn't panic on one of my adults being a year or more beyond vaccination, but I don't like to miss the 1-year-booster. The reason is, we really do not know when the mother's immunity wears off, and if we give rabies at 16 weeks, which is when I do, what if the dog is still under his dam's immunity? We cannot avoid every possibility, but the chances of a dog encountering a rabid critter in one year is less than if that stretches out. So that first booster, I think is important.

One can go way too far on the natural bit though. Understanding how vaccines work and making an educated choice with as much risk as you are comfortable with is understandable. Not training the dog to toilet outside because you don't want to force human whatevers onto a dog, well, that is grounds for being committed.

Dogs are domestic animals, and if they are going to live with us and share our home and share our lives, than there has to be some training, and there has to be boundaries, and there has to be some soap.

People think that they are being kind to children and animals when they permit behaviors that are inappropriate. Nothing can be farther from the truth. Structure and boundaries and discipline make both children and dogs feel safe and confident and trusting. Not curbing bad behavior in both species is selfish and the one that should have been curbed is the one that will suffer from the selfish inaction.

Ok, I admit it, I did not read the article, my computer is on the fritz and I am afraid at any moment that it will die. So I am just hoping that covers something in the article.
 
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