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my ols schuts club over run with labs & BC getting BH's?

5K views 43 replies 19 participants last post by  BritneyP 
#1 ·
to stop membership going to just the TD the club had to do something to survive and justify locking up much contested public space - they allowed BC's in to do the BH, these dogs are all old campainers that have run out of titles to get thru the AKC and frankly most get the BH in no time and look a whole lot smarter than the GSD's. they also are allowed to get a tracking title which they all get easy. most already have tracking titles.

the handlers only do it cos they want to keep training and getting titles just for titles sake.

are these BH and tracking leg legitimate titles recognised by the world schuts peeps (if there is such a thing) or just bits of paper printed out by the club??

sadly the club has mals doing actuall schuts titles, and mainly BC, labs....all over the field, the only gsd you really see are show dogs getting a breed survey on the schuts field cos i guess it makes there lame breed survey which any mutt from the pound could pass in terms of the temp test "feel" more german and real.

i actually got asked back to join but my ego and pride got in the way cos they shunned my puppy.

so sad when it becomes elitism versus survival and elitism loses, sad for the elitists that is.
 
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#2 ·
Where I am, any dog that can do the sport can be in the sport. There were 4 Rottweilers there the day I went. Dalmatians would be really good at it.
 
#3 ·
obviously nobody is going to take an adult bc/lab that and start it in protection work so they just "title" in BH and tracking, and i meant to say do all the obed pahse from 1 to 3. actually on trial daysas well.

i might add and they get judged and points from a regular schuts judge.
 
#5 ·
makes sense, i think it should actually be harder and less precision focussed, like actually take yr dog out in a busy public area with real vehicle traffic and random dogs and people everywhere. too much liability i guess.

if it was possible i would love to be internetlly assessed in the MH? that seems like a more legit temp test than the BH imo.
 
#6 ·
I know SO many breeds that have BH's. Frankly, I am happy to see anyone working any dog in any sport. SchH is hard, takes a lot of work, commitment, and time. I am impressed with a title, even if it is "only" a BH lol. Our club has rotties, GSDs, a pit bull, and a boxer(Rotties are all titled, some all the way to SchH 3, GSD-BH, Boxer-BH, Pit Bull-Just joined). They all have their strengths and weaknesses. I love seeing different breeds and how they act. My TD is of the mindset-if the dog can do the work and likes it-they aren't going to get turned away. I know a lot of clubs aren't like that, and are more "purests," meh...whatever.
 
#13 ·
Frankly, I am happy to see anyone working any dog in any sport.
Agree!

I just adopted a mixed breed dog and plan on taking her along to my club to see if she can do any of the phases. My dog, my time, my money....as long as the club is open to other breeds then who cares?
 
#7 · (Edited)
i was recently dissapointed to learn that some euro sports only allow certain breeds or registries to compete - i thought these orgs just had the best dogs just cos they had the best dogs, when you lock a dog out cos of breed/papers or who it is registered with is a big negative for working dogs.

we have stock dog trials here in open country, real tough challenges with big prize money at stake, best dog wins no matter what breed, nobody even asks what breed yr dog is, a stupid question really to true working dog folks.

thats true competition which makes breeders breed better not breeding cos pedigree papers are a form of currency.

like asians that dominated martial arts by not allowing ****** to compete, a frind of mine finally got into a big title match and beat the unbeatable champ, they did not like it but in the end they raised their own standards to become competitive again, some lesson in their for the dog world.
 
#10 ·
Our club is the same - we welcome anyone with a dog able to do the work and those who was dedicated to the sport and club.

We currently have 1 ACD training with us and he has probably more drive than most of our GSD's! He's fun to watch work although he has yet to do any C phase work but will probably start that this fall.
 
#9 ·
I really don't understand the issue with a lab or bc getting a bh, ob, or tracking title? Anyone can enter a trial.........bh is pass or fail. Something any breed should be able to do! Protection work is another story...
 
#12 ·
Seriously, why on earth would that be bad?

The more people get involved in sports, the better-known those sports become. The better-known they become, the more people get involved. It's a really positive cycle if you can get it started.

I would think this would be especially true for the protection sports, which often have to fight quite a few negative stigmas in public perception. Having more people, and more dogs of different breeds, involved in and representing those sports can only be a good thing.
 
#21 ·
You want a BIG terrier try a Black Russian Terrier!! LOL now that's a BIG terrier. ;)

I've actually had some hands on experience with one and this video doesn't do these dogs justice. They are intimidating, booming bark, large size lots of presence...




OMG terriers are a trip! They crack me up. It's really too bad they aren't bigger--they are such scrappy little monsters!! Although if they were bigger we'd all be in BIG trouble!
 
#18 ·
ok i guess i was a bit worried by the other breeds appearing in larger numbers than the breed the sport/test was designed for in that club. i am not in it at all so not really my problem.

democracy rules, the more the merrier i guess, so be it.
 
#20 ·
Oh, now that's an interesting thread. Thank you for bringing it up -- I hadn't seen that one before and probably never would have found it without the link.

I haven't read through the whole thing yet (only on page 7 -- but I'll finish it!) but I'm gonna stick by what I said earlier: more participation can only be a good thing. And maybe these points were already made in that original thread, since there are almost 20 pages left for me to read there, but still:

-- it's tough to get new people hooked on a sport, or the dogs who are supposed to be good at that sport, if they aren't allowed to try it with the dogs they currently have. More than likely, they'll just go "pfft" and do another sport that's more inclusionary;

-- if the dogs for whom the sport was originally intended are indeed the best at it, then (a) they should be able to prove it on a fair field open to all competitors, and shouldn't need protectionism to look good; and (b) if and when they do beat all comers, the people who are seriously hooked on that sport tend to get one of those dogs as their next competition dog (see also: border collies in agility, golden retrievers and Shelties in obedience, border-staffies in flyball);

-- apparently there's a problem with Schutzhund clubs folding for lack of interest/attendance, so if this helps get their membership up, hooray for them;

-- as I said earlier, protection sports can have a negative image in some quarters. The more people who do them (and learn about them, and develop firsthand experience with them and the dogs who participate), and the more non-traditional breeds show in them, the more that negative image is likely to be countered by better public perceptions.

Now, obviously that argument is considerably less convincing if you view Schutzhund as a breed worthiness test rather than a sport, but from what I've seen on this board, nobody seems to think it's serving a valuable purpose as a breed worthiness test anymore. Either the title doesn't tell you enough about the dog, or the test has been watered down such that it's not a sufficient test of the dog's nerve, or it's pushing the breed toward flashier Malinois-style performances, or some other flaw... but I don't think I've seen anyone defending the current state of Schutzhund as a valid test of breed worthiness in the U.S.

So it's a sport. And if it's a sport, the sport rationales apply, and more participation is a very good thing.
 
#35 ·
nobody seems to think it's serving a valuable purpose as a breed worthiness test anymore.
I do, but I personally don't breed or decide which dogs to buy based on a *single* indicator of breed worthiness and that's not unique to GSDs or Schutzhund. For example if I were looking for a flyball dog I would not purchase a dog solely on the number of points the parents have earned or their fastest times even though they'd have to be proven dogs in those regards. Because I enjoy doing SchH with my GSDs and want it to be fun and do respectably well, suitability based on pedigree is valuable to me.
 
#22 ·
it's tough to get new people hooked on a sport, or the dogs who are supposed to be good at that sport, if they aren't allowed to try it with the dogs they currently have. More than likely, they'll just go "pfft" and do another sport that's more inclusionary;-- apparently there's a problem with Schutzhund clubs folding for lack of interest/attendance, so if this helps get their membership up, hooray for them;
I think it is addictive to certain personalities...those that don't mind getting discouraged over and over or are up for a good challenge! I started with a dog that didn't have 'it' and washed her as soon as it was evident. It wasn't fair to her to continue. I then looked for a breeding that would better suit what I wanted to be in the sport. You don't know what you don't know until you know, LOL!

--Not so much lack of interest/attendance but lack of good helperwork, clubs(venues to train at with a permanent trial field) and equipment expenses.
 
#25 ·
I think it is addictive to certain personalities...those that don't mind getting discouraged over and over or are up for a good challenge! I started with a dog that didn't have 'it' and washed her as soon as it was evident. It wasn't fair to her to continue. I then looked for a breeding that would better suit what I wanted to be in the sport. You don't know what you don't know until you know, LOL!

--Not so much lack of interest/attendance but lack of good helperwork, clubs(venues to train at with a permanent trial field) and equipment expenses.
Good points both. ;)

I don't have a SchH dog right now myself. Both of my mutts are way too soft (and one's outright fearful) -- it would honestly be abusive for me to even put them on the field. Whenever I see somebody say anything like "oh any dog can do Schutzhund, it's so watered down now," I secretly think "uh did you see the 293874923874 threads about 'help my dog can't do Schutzhund'?" Because no, all dogs definitely can't do it, watered down or not!

But I'd like to do it. I want to get a dog who can do it. And the reason I want to do it is because it looks like a whole lot of (slightly masochistic) fun. If it didn't look fun, or I thought everybody doing it was a big mean exclusionary jerk (which is what I used to think about the AKC, until a good friend kindly told me to pull my head out of my butt), I wouldn't be interested. That simple.

As for the lack of equipment/helpers/venues -- yes, but that all ultimately ties back to participation. I mean, look at how much equipment, space, and specialized staff a football team needs. That is a TON of money, time, and personnel. But football is really popular, so teams can get all that stuff together.

Agility takes a lot of expensive equipment and space too. But, again, it's popular, so people get together and make it happen.
 
#24 ·
Can't wait to see how you will include it in your posts!
 
#26 ·
personally as a non-hacker i would prefer to see less focus on precision and n increase in level of difficulty of the tests. by that i mean harder tests where the dog can sort of do it in their own way and not have to be so precise.

i don't think any part of shuts routine in isolation is that hard (but i never tried it), hence the only thing left to stand out is precision, precision, precision.

which imo = a specific type of dog temp, excellent training/support to get the dog there, that all means it becomes less about the breed and more about the individual dog, the trainer and the scene.

prolly makes no sense
 
#44 ·
If you are so unhappy with an existing sport, instead of complaining about how it should be changed, why don't you just try a new one that seems more suitable to you?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Labs and Border Collies obtaining BHs and I'm sure their owners work very hard with them. Maybe consider not raining on everyone's parade all the time?
 
#27 · (Edited)
The AWDF scores were all over the place, and the judges obviously had sharp pencils... w/top teams participating.
One of those top trainers complained about 3 points lost on the long bite(oops, I mean courage test). 3 points is a huge deal!
Results
 
#30 ·
In my clubs, we have GSD's, Mals, Rotties, Dobes, Boxers, Pit Bulls, American Bulldogs, Cattle Dogs and some mixed breeds from the shelter. Personally, I love working all the different breeds.

As for participation, There are hundreds of people that want to handle their dogs, but very few who want to or are capable of catching dogs. Being a helper is an art of itself and requires tons of studying as well as practical application. Like Jane said, the majority of clubs fold because of lack of helper. There is currently a club that's on its way out a couple hours from me because of this very issue. It's members have been coming to us one by one. Unfortunately our club is very full and our training director has to turn them away now. We have three great helpers but can only work so many dogs in a day. So....
 
#31 ·
How much do paid helpers run? I saw $20/run on another thread but I have no idea if that's a standard rate or abnormally high or low or what.

$20/run works out to be... how much per hour?

Seems like with a little more publicity, if the demand is there, it ought to be possible to find people willing to work for that rate in this economy, whether or not they care a whit about Schutzhund.

Of course, "if the demand is there" is key. You'd need to be able to promise people a reasonably steady rate of employment for it to be worthwhile, if they didn't actually care about the sport for its own sake. But with sufficient demand, it seems like it certainly ought to be possible.
 
#34 · (Edited)
I've paid average of $30 a session(could be two turns, could be one depending on what you are working on) Also includes spotting the obedience phase.

It isn't so much the cost of helperwork, but having the good,great helpers mentor others willing to carry on the craft. That takes so much time to get to the level of doing it on your own. And not many people are willing to let an inexperienced helper work their dog.

In my area, there are several good helpers, some don't get paid, others will take 'tips' and then there are the paid sleeves that people come from all over to train with. Still, there is a shortage of good helpers, so traveling 1 to 4 hours is normal.
Those paid sleeves are thankfully mentoring other up and coming helpers, but it is a talent and you need to know how to read the particular dog and timing is everything. That only comes with experience/and of course the physical condition of the helper is important.

Where I pay to play, the helper/trainer works dogs 4 days a week and it is very, very tiring. And then he also competes, so he has to go elsewhere to have his dog worked. It is very demanding, I can see why good helpers are hard to come by!
 
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