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Discussion Starter #1
So my dog suffered from 2 straight days of "mild" diarrhea, so the following day I dropped off his poop to the doctor.
I just got a call back today and he was diagnosed with coccidia, and just came back with his meds (Albon).

I am bummed..

So one there are several things that I am scared of when it comes to dog's general health ; hip dysplasia, bloat, and giardia.
Now, I dont know if coccidia is as bad as giardia, but according to what I've read online throughout owning my dog, giardia is pretty darn hard to get rid of.
My dog lives inside the house, sleeps on my bed, and roams all corners of the house.
If I were to clean out everything, from the couch, bed, santizing all corners of the house, it will be a daunting task. And where's the guarantee that I will get all of it...
My biggest fears of giardia is not the treatment, but the re infection. And I'm worried it may be the case with coccidia...

Anyone with experince, any stories/advice are welcome.
 

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Coccidia is a common thing in dogs. I will check but I don't believe it's zoonotic like giardia. I would not be worried. At all. Wash your hands and your bedding if he has an accident. But other than that no worries.
 
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my vet said it was a parasite, rather than a protozoa in giardia, which can live outside of its host for a prolonged amount of time.
but after i came home and done some light research, the articles suggest i should still clean out the house and bedding..
fyi, vet said humans can't contract coccida from dogs, and the articles i've read seem to confirm that bit.

thank you for the reply
 

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My dog, Shelby, had coccidia when I adopted her as a shelter puppy. It was no big deal. She took her medicine and recovered fine. She never got it again. She did not pass it on to my other dog. Other than immediately picking up feces, I did nothing. Well, washed my hands, but I do that after picking up poop anyway. lol!
 

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My dog, Shelby, had coccidia when I adopted her as a shelter puppy. It was no big deal. She took her medicine and recovered fine. She never got it again. She did not pass it on to my other dog. Other than immediately picking up feces, I did nothing. Well, washed my hands, but I do that after picking up poop anyway. lol!
VERY NICE.
thx for sharing your experience.

yea im just gonna do that. i will change out my sheets, mop the high traffic areas around the house, but i'm not gonna stress over it.
doc told me to drop off another poop samble 5 days after finishing his medication (14 day supply so 19 days from now), and i will drop off another smaple maybe 2 weeks after that one too.
and hopefully get cleared by then.

one question.
what should i do about the toys..
he's got a bunch of plush toys that he chews/plays with.
i mean yea i can just throw them away and start fresh, but kind of annoying..
 

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I've had many foster dogs with it. Most are done with it after just a few days of Ponazuril, from the vet. Some need a second round. My personal dogs never picked it up from the fosters -- though I do have the sick foster dogs potty in my front yard in a place my personal dogs never go or on concrete that can be bleached.

Ponazuril is a newer way to treat it, compared to Albon -- I like it better because it's a short, quick treatment. The last time I used it for a foster dog was literally three doses, and we were done. My vet gets it compounded to dilute it for dogs. It's described here:
PONAZURIL - Mar Vista Animal Medical Center


I clean the foster dog's crate with 10% bleach solution (letting sit for 10 min.), and I wash the sick dog bedding in hot water with bleach. I wouldn't panic over this -- save that for the ringworm and scabies! ;)
 

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I've had many foster dogs with it. Most are done with it after just a few days of Ponazuril, from the vet. Some need a second round. My personal dogs never picked it up from the fosters -- though I do have the sick foster dogs potty in my front yard in a place my personal dogs never go or on concrete that can be bleached.

Ponazuril is a newer way to treat it, compared to Albon -- I like it better because it's a short, quick treatment. The last time I used it for a foster dog was literally three doses, and we were done. My vet gets it compounded to dilute it for dogs. It's described here:
PONAZURIL - Mar Vista Animal Medical Center


I clean the foster dog's crate with 10% bleach solution (letting sit for 10 min.), and I wash the sick dog bedding in hot water with bleach. I wouldn't panic over this -- save that for the ringworm and scabies! ;)

hello magwort,

i did some online reading on albon and ponazuril and it seems albon doesn't actually get RID OF the parasite, just stops it from its reproduction cycle, while ponazuril does.

anyways, i just remembered that i had an unopened bottle of kochi free that i keep in my doggy first aid kit, along with ointments and stuff, and did a quick online search to see if other users have had success with kochi free when it came to coccidia, and it seems it is effective.

so i just gave my dog his first serving, and i will do that along with the albon he is prescribed.

hopefully those 2 can work together, i will contact the vet tomorrow to make sure, but i have a feeling they won't advise it. they are very "by the book" and of the traditional veterinary science mindset. no raw food, full vaccine, "condescending" of homeopathic approach, etc etc


anyways, will see how that goes.

thank you for your help as always.
 

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Pan, please speak to someone who can make sure that it's safe to use KF with Albon. If you can't ask your vet, at least ask the KF manufacturer!

The herbs in Kocchi-Free (including olive leaf extract, which has antibiotic properties) are quite potent, and interactions with drugs *are* possible with "natural" products.

If your vet is one that won't actually talk through questions without judgment and making you feel condescended to, you honestly need a new vet. You deserve to have a partner in your dog's health -- who will talk through questions without treating you like an idiot, research your questions if he or she doesn't know the answer, and think through issues for which there isn't a ready answer, based on what's known and what can be extrapolated.

Any evidence-based vet who's being honest about "the evidence," ought to admit:

(1) kibble-fed dogs get salmonella, e. coli, and all the rest pretty regularly (my own vet admitted every case he's ever treated in his clinic was kibble-fed, even though he has a fair number of raw-fed patients)

(2) there's never been a controlled, double-blind feeding trial comparing long-term health of kibble vs. a nutritionally balanced raw diet so NO good evidence exists on either side of the debate;

(3) most of the CDC/AVMA concerns are about contamination for humans handling the pet diet (so we talked about deep-freezing meat and sanitation of work spaces);


(4) there's not even good statistical data that raw-fed dogs suffer GI infections at greater rates than kibble-fed -- there are papers that talk about risk of camphylo (esp. from chicken), but they haven't been able to show that camphylo infections are showing up significantly in raw-fed dogs (yet).

(5) a lot of the worry is about not feeding a nutritionally adequate diet--so you can easily take that off the table by saying it's AAFCO or NRC compliant

Beyond nutritional adequacy, most pet diet stuff falls into the "unknown" category. That could change someday, but right now, canine nutrition research is pretty primitive -- if the vets are being honest (and I have that word from the lips of a specialist, frustrated by not having good research to support advice her patients need). So from an evidence-based perspective, as long as the diet meets AAFCO or NRC nutritional requirements, the fair comment they can make is: "we don't have any evidence which kind of diet is really better for long-term health." They could also fairly say, "We have some concerns about camphylo, listeria, and e. coli, but we don't yet have data to show raw-fed dogs are falling ill from those things in a significant way or at higher rates than kibble-fed dogs. And if you feed HPP raw, that eases my concern about that." Mine added: "I've treated a number of dogs that had salmonella, so we know they can get it, but all of the cases I've treated were kibble-fed. There are quite a few raw-fed patients in my practice, and none has ever needed treatment for salmonella." That's an honest evidence-based conversation.
 

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Coccidia, once it gets into your soil, is very hard to get rid of. Good thing I have found is it is easy to treat and most healthy adult dogs develop a resistance to it and it never comes back. I have used both Albon and ponazuril. We had a problem in MI with Albon resistant coccidia. Where I am now they only seem to treat with Albon because they have yet to have an issue with any resistance.
 

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Pan, please speak to someone who can make sure that it's safe to use KF with Albon. If you can't ask your vet, at least ask the KF manufacturer!

The herbs in Kocchi-Free (including olive leaf extract, which has antibiotic properties) are quite potent, and interactions with drugs *are* possible with "natural" products.

If your vet is one that won't actually talk through questions without judgment and making you feel condescended to, you honestly need a new vet. You deserve to have a partner in your dog's health -- who will talk through questions without treating you like an idiot, research your questions if he or she doesn't know the answer, and think through issues for which there isn't a ready answer, based on what's known and what can be extrapolated.
hello,

so i literally JUST read your post, and i called my vet's office right away.
they said it won't cause any negative reactions, but said it might interfere what the medication is trying to do.
and they said stuff like kochi free are just "gimmicks".

so yea. as i said before, they don't want NOTHING to do with alternative treament, homepathic, all-natural approach. very by the book.

very nice people, very kind and polite, but i'm just telling your their school of thought.

so what should i do? just stop it? i would like to continue... because after i found out albon doesn't actually get rid of the parasite, i want to try somehting that will. and that's why i remembered this bottle of kochi free that i always had.




Pan, where does this vet live? I like this kind of vet. :) We don't use too much homeopathy in the ICU.

https://www.epainassist.com/infections/coccidiosis-in-humans
well i respect their professional opinion but i would like someone that was "multi faceted" and open minded.
just told me kochi free was a "gimmick"

Coccidia, once it gets into your soil, is very hard to get rid of. Good thing I have found is it is easy to treat and most healthy adult dogs develop a resistance to it and it never comes back. I have used both Albon and ponazuril. We had a problem in MI with Albon resistant coccidia. Where I am now they only seem to treat with Albon because they have yet to have an issue with any resistance.
yes after reading more on coccidia, it seems the eggs/cysts are even more hardened and resistant than even giardia....
 

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Call the manufacturer of kocci-free.



Olive leaf (one of its components) has actually been studied to some extent -- here's a corporate vet source you can share with your own vet, if they'll actually entertain the conversation:

https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/olive-leaf


Please also understand that the natural stuff that works does so through chemistry -- just like pharma, but with less rigorous review and oversight. It's not magic. And it's not automatically safe just because it's natural (arsenic, hemlock, etc. are all "natural"....). There are also people online (and even here) who recommend natural stuff that's always assumed to have no side effects, but may be contraindicated for some conditions (e.g., dogs with liver problems) and may even be dangerous for a dog that happens to have that contraindicated condition. Undiluted tea tree oil is an example -- it's led to many calls to pet poison control -- the relatively safe external dose is much, much lower than a lot of people think. That's where having a vet on your team to check that stuff is so important! It's a "caveat emptor" space where you can't trust claims or labels without some research, as no one is regulating the supplement manufacturers or checking for safety.



Homeopathy is a different category. It's been thoroughly decimated in good, controlled studies -- IMHO, it's pretty clear from the science that it's "woo" based on magical thinking ("energy" of substances diluted to the point they're virtually undetectable somehow "does stuff"). It's pretty much in the same category as crystals and faith-healing, as far as I'm concerned.



Lots and lots of emerging topics of scientific discovery (like probiotics) started out as "alternative" stuff, and we're just barely starting to understand which ones work and why through good science. That doesn't stop speculative, ludicrous claims from being made (and charlatans from fleecing people with products that don't contain what they say they do). However, many vets are now following the research, and often prescribing probiotics to patients on antibiotics...because their thinking has shifted.



A good vet ought to be helping you to separate wheat from chaffe in this space. Categorical thinking isn't all that helpful -- on either side.
 

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i will try and get in touch with kochi free, but you already know what they will say.

they will NEVER recommend mixing the use of their product with anything else because whatever negative effects it may have, they won't be held legally liable. so they HAVE TO advice customers to follow the directions on their user's manual, or not use at all. they have to. that's just the legality aspect of it.

i already gave my dog 2 doses of kochi free already so i will stop for the time being, and will see how he does through the end of today.

so far he's eating well, drinking, dumb and annoying as always, and just being himself.

and if he seems fine, i will give him 1 or 2 doses per day as opposed to 4 doses that is recommended on the box.
 

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Are you using the Albon the veterinarian prescribed also?

Generally, underdosing with any kind of antibiotic, natural or otherwise, is not recomended. It can cause the organisms to become immune. Not taking them for long enough will do the same thing.
 
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Hello all,

Just an update. A happy update.
My dog's fecal results came back clean.
I was very relieve to hear that because I was a bit paranoid about this, with all the reinfection, cleaning the house, etc etc.

I ended up changing out my bed sheet, and the couch, two areas where my dog likes to just relax, but as far as mopping the house, i didn't.
i kept all the dog toys, but i think i'm gonna throw them out too. get him some new ones while i'm at it.

as far as the kochi free, to my surprise the representative at kochi free said i AM able to administer the kochi free ALONG with the vet's prescribed meds.
my vet said don't, and kochi free said it's fine.

just for the record, and for future reference for other members that happen to find this post from a search, i started with albon, ALONG with kochi free for 3 days, and then i discontinued kochi free due to concerns from some members here and the vet.
so i continued on with the albon for 2 weeks, and after i ran out of albon, i started the kochi free again for about 5 or so days, and then submitted the new stool sample, which came back negative.

i do not know if the kochi free helped or not, because there was no "control" to test that hypothesis. but the company behind kochi free told me you ARE able to administer kochi free with albon. just fyi.

anyways, i am gonna submit another stool sample a month later just to make sure.
 
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