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Never thought on changes of directions... very, very interesting. Thanks.
 

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I think a dog's lack of athleticism has less to do with a correct outreaching front than it does with lack of balance, poor ligamentation and bad proportions. A correct front, as exhibited by the dog in the video is in balance with the rest of the dog, he would not be able to move so well in the front if he didn't have balance in the rear, a correct and functioning middle piece and strong back. A total package that is in condition and moves correctly will be a dog who can and will change speeds, gaits and directions in a blink.
 

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I respectfully disagree. Of course, a dog that is in good condition and has firm ligaments will be more athletic than one who is less so, all things being equal. I agree with all of your statements about Dingo: balanced, strong back, correct middle. But if you have any background in engineering or complex systems, or have actually worked dogs in schutzhund and herding, you will know that you can not optimize on everything. At some point, every complex system makes a tradeoff; favoring one element over another. Some cars have excellent straight line stability on the freeway but do not have a sharp turn-in into corners. Anyone who has driven high performance cars knows this. You simply can not have everything. In the case of this dog, straight line speed and stability is favored in comparison to maximum manueverability. Personally, I will favor the sportscar over the limousine. But we all have different tastes. The problem with show people is you do not use your dogs in high performance events, gaiting around a show ring is not high performance.
 

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<span style="color: #3333FF">The problem with show people is you do not use your dogs in high performance events, gaiting around a show ring is not high performance. </span>

Do not even go there Ocean. We have had the working line vs the show line argument a lot here, and most of the time the thread gets locked.
Can we not have a nice discussion without beating up on a particular sport or line of dog?
 

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You are welcome to respectfully disagree. I don't believe one needs a background in engineering to appreciate the complexities of canine structure, they are not necessarily comparable. However, without understanding the mechanics (if you would like to use that word) of correct structure in the dog and how a well structured dog functions, an untrained eye will become accustomed to what is incorrect if that is what one most often sees, and if that incorrectness becomes the norm, the breed becomes less adept at it's overall abilities . It does not matter which function the dog might perform, if structured harmoniously and correctly it will be a dog who is quite capable and without suffering undue long term detriment to it's body.

The video posted should be watched again and again, to appreciate how a dog like this WOULD BE athletic and capable in any work or sport. Don't think for a minute that a dog this correct couldn't do it all.
 

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If todays top conformation does not lead to top working a majority of the time then something is wrong with the equation; plain and simple! I'm not saying it is or isn't, everybody knows the truth, I'm just saying that correct form should lead to top function MOST of the time. Does it????????
 

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Quote:I respectfully disagree. Of course, a dog that is in good condition and has firm ligaments will be more athletic than one who is less so, all things being equal. I agree with all of your statements about Dingo: balanced, strong back, correct middle. But if you have any background in engineering or complex systems, or have actually worked dogs in schutzhund and herding, you will know that you can not optimize on everything. At some point, every complex system makes a tradeoff; favoring one element over another. Some cars have excellent straight line stability on the freeway but do not have a sharp turn-in into corners. Anyone who has driven high performance cars knows this. You simply can not have everything. In the case of this dog, straight line speed and stability is favored in comparison to maximum manueverability. Personally, I will favor the sportscar over the limousine. But we all have different tastes. The problem with show people is you do not use your dogs in high performance events, gaiting around a show ring is not high performance.
Agree with that, ...what they gain in the modern show structure, they lose out in other areas, in the ability to run and jump with speed in comparison with some other types...JMHO

I prefer Dingo to the ones you see today, he looks much less exaggerated but still....
 

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Ceph,
We' on the same page though I also liked Fanto's working ability and his daughter Frigga v Silbersee had excellent working traits.
Nothing wrong with good movement especially if it is balanced like Worls Seiger Marko vom Cellerland who was so balanced that his shortcomings still allowed him to be German and World Seiger.
 

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I think working ability has more to do with character than structure.

I have seen a nearly 15 year old VA female who has great desire for the work, will still bounce a bit attempting to do a H&B, and take a good full grip and a 4th generation male who is linebred on this female who shows very good working potential. Working ability is NOT lost, it is just not always as high a priority in some matchings.

It is not in breeding for specific structure the show lines lose the intensity for work, and many do have good drive for bite work - it is that attention to character and drive for work have to be addressed as a higher priority. It is baby steps to regain and making hard choices as a breeder, the same as we who do working lines MUST look at structure (functional, not fashionable - I am not advocating breeding a G bitch to a VA dog!). The best conformed pup in a litter may not have the best drive, and in fact, it may be one of the less perfect pups. The choice is with the breeder to sacrifice a degree of angulation or shade of depth of pigment to keep that pup with more desire/intensity in their program.

I have seen dogs coming from Fanto as well with good drives - 3rd and 4th generation even.

Lee
 

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I agree with your post Lee but I am talking more about the movement of the GS in reference to correct conformation. The ability to start, stop, change direction, explosive propulsion,jump, or all the things that a good shepherd dog would have to do to manage 300 sheep or do the police work. The character is another component also, but do you ever see dogs that seem clumsy, or so long that the quickness is not there. To be correct conformation should show these attributes in abundance because they are the qualities that are needed to do work(herding/police) and thus should define the breed.
 

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I was enjoying an AKC show last summer, and saw shepherds which I thought looked and moved beautifully. Their handlers were wearing Nike running shoes and moved beautifully as well but shockingly looked more athletic than the dogs! I saw some handlers had to slow down to let some dogs catch up w/them in making tight turns! When you have a "working dog" breed that looks less athletic than its human handler that breed has a problem IMHO.
 

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sorry - I sort of went off on a tangent there!!! As far as economical movement, I think the smaller working GSDs are more agile and can still trot pretty well, if not as breatakenly "pretty" - I know I was driving a quad around the Kentucky Horse park and watching my working line trot at a solid 25 MPH for at least a half mile!!! Yet she was a whiz at twists, turns, jumps etc in agility. The bigger the animal, generally the less agile and athletic.

Lee
 

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Yes, the dog is VA1 Dingo vom Haus Gero, his hip production was not so good.
He was known for a lot of "Fast Normal" hips.
But passed on some of the best hardness and fighting instinct of any of the Great Show Males.
 

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That's not so bad if there were still a low incidence of truly bad hips. If he produced litters that were consistently fast normal for the most part with only occasional bad hips, I think the structure and ability and temperament he brought to the table would be well worth it, but again that is something that must be decided after much pedigree research and choosing the right bitch lines.

Does anyone know if there are any recent dogs that have Dingo in their lineage once or more that also retain his abilities? Or any kennels?
 
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