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I have no information on this particular kennel, but I own a dog whose dam is a litter-mate to Andrjuscha van Noort (a dog listed on their "Males" page).
Sheilah

 

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www.traumhofgsd.com This is where i got my Ryker from "P" litter Poseidon Vom Traumhof. Good luck!:) Townsend, Ma
 

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Did you happen to look at the links for their males and females? Most of them seem to have Schutzhund titles. Showlines that work maybe?
In Germany you can't breed show or working line GSD's unless they have a Sch title. So both 'show' and 'working' dogs in German have that Sch title. Course there are arguments about the tests being harder or easier or..... depending on the dogs you like :)

Chances are, if the dogs are red/black with a saddle and a curve in their topline, they are German showlines (with Sch titles). Look at these Seiger winners from 2009, definitely the same 'type' http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/showresults/2009.html



Chances are if they are all different colors (lot's of sables/blacks/bi's) with a straight topline they are German working (with Sch titles). This site has the 'working' line winners http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/workresults/2009.html

 

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Did you happen to look at the links for their males and females? Most of them seem to have Schutzhund titles. Showlines that work maybe?
In Germany, all GSDs must have OFA and at least a SchH1 to be bred. Showlines too. Having titles does not change the lines they come from.

I trained my mixed breed in Schutzhund, and she has the obedience and tracking titles from Schutzhund and completed the 12.5 mile AD endurance run, and I may have been able to title her to full SchH1 if I really pursued it (our helper feels that she could title), but that does not make her a working line GSD, just a mutt with a lot of training on her. :)

It is very common for people to see the SchH titles and think the dogs are from working lines, but the lines are based on the pedigree.
 

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It is very common for people to see the SchH titles and think the dogs are from working lines, but the lines are based on the pedigree.
Thanks Castlemaid and MaggieRoseLee!
So for us non SV educated people can you explain that a little more because it's really confusing?

If I look at two lines and both lines seem to have an equal number of Sch titles running through the pedigree, is it just the looks that tell me which is a working line and which is a show line, or should we be looking for other titles besides Sch? (not talking about this particular breeder btw, just lines in general)
 

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Nothing to do with the Sch title to tell if a German dog is 'working' or 'show'. They ALL need at least a Sch 1 to be used for breeding.

Look at the links with the champions I posted with the 2 photos. Look at the PHOTOS! They are really to 'type' so that after a time you can just look at the dogs in a stack.
 

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Also, in the last 25 to 30 years, to see anything besides a show line dog with "VA" in front of its name would be almost unheard of. The best way, though, is to look at the type/structure, color, for the most part, and learn the names.
 

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Nothing to do with the Sch title to tell if a German dog is 'working' or 'show'. They ALL need at least a Sch 1 to be used for breeding.

Look at the links with the champions I posted with the 2 photos. Look at the PHOTOS! They are really to 'type' so that after a time you can just look at the dogs in a stack.
I know they look different but really, that's it? I feel like I've been living under a rock ;) because this is what I thought.

A working line dog doesn't necessarily fit a judges idea of the perfect GSD as far as looks go. A show line has a certain look that the judges find appealing. (in the ring)

Other than that I thought the "working line" distinction was all about what the dogs in the pedigree had accomplished and had the ability to do. Working lines work, showlines do primarily conformation. If they're all getting the same titles wouldn't that mean they all have the "working line" temperament people are always talking about on this list?

Or, is the comparison people make more about comparing dogs who come from AKC lines rather than SV lines?

Seriously, I thought "type" was more about temperament, drive etc. than looks, and that the look of the dog was form following function over the generations.
 

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Seriously, I thought "type" was more about temperament, drive etc. than looks, and that the look of the dog was form following function over the generations.
Their temperments are different too.... but others need to comment on that. There's a split in Germany just like here with the breed in the USA cause everyone likes what they like and know they are right.

Structurally, I prefer the 'working' line look. To me, it's more of a regular balanced dog type look. You know, like the coyote/wolf/fox type of body. For me, the 'show' lines have been too manipulated for a special look that's winning there and it's not what I prefer.

Temperment wise, it depends on what you want in a dog so it's another reason it helps to meet the parent dogs, and what are your goals for a dog.
 

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If they're all getting the same titles wouldn't that mean they all have the "working line" temperament people are always talking about on this list?

Not all SchHIII's are created equal.

Think about it this way: John is the starting quarterback for Our Lady of Perpetual Sorrow University. Jim is the starting quarterback at Notre Dame. John and Jim are both college level quarterbacks. Does that mean they're equally as likely to get a professional contract?

Dog A might have earned his SchHIII on his home field with the same helper he's been training with since he was a pup. Dog B earns his SchHIII at a national-level competition on an unfamiliar field with a really intimidating helper he's never seen before.
 

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I know they look different but really, that's it? I feel like I've been living under a rock ;) because this is what I thought.

A working line dog doesn't necessarily fit a judges idea of the perfect GSD as far as looks go. A show line has a certain look that the judges find appealing. (in the ring)

Other than that I thought the "working line" distinction was all about what the dogs in the pedigree had accomplished and had the ability to do. Working lines work, showlines do primarily conformation. If they're all getting the same titles wouldn't that mean they all have the "working line" temperament people are always talking about on this list?

Or, is the comparison people make more about comparing dogs who come from AKC lines rather than SV lines?

Seriously, I thought "type" was more about temperament, drive etc. than looks, and that the look of the dog was form following function over the generations.
I think the easiest way to see the differences is watch videos. Lots of them! Say, look at protection videos from the Sieger Show. Then look at protection videos from BSP of WUSV. To me, the differences in the the dogs is horribly apparent. Not to say that there aren't some showline dogs who can play with the big boys at the BSP...but as a whole, you'll have to be living under a REALLY big rock if you can't see how starkly different the two lines are. :)

ETA: For that matter, just look at the differences in obedience too.
 

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Sieger Show:
#!

WUSV:

I didn't watch either all the way through, and I'm sure people can find lots to say on both ends of it, but I think the difference watching about 1 minute of each are definitely there.

And not to hijack the thread here and start yet another debate on showline vs. working line, but since it was brought up by someone else.

But OP, get whatever line you think will best fit your lifestyle and what you'd like the most after doing the research and going with a reputable breeder.
 

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If I look at two lines and both lines seem to have an equal number of Sch titles running through the pedigree, is it just the looks that tell me which is a working line and which is a show line, or should we be looking for other titles besides Sch? (not talking about this particular breeder btw, just lines in general)
Look at the pedigree, not the titles. My pure working line dog has no Schutzhund titles. My pure German show line dog has a lot of titles and will eventually have Schutzhund titles. The titles do not change the actual lines and pedigree of the dog. A German show line dog might have faults such that it cannot place well in shows, and a working line dog might lack drive such that it is better as a companion dog and not a Schutzhund dog. I don't speak Dutch but I am 100% Dutch.
 

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I didn't watch either all the way through, and I'm sure people can find lots to say on both ends of it, but I think the difference watching about 1 minute of each are definitely there.
Except the Sieger Show showcases some of the worst performance as far as actual bitework and is not an actual trial, and the WUSV is the world championships for SchH with a full trial. You are comparing the worst with the best so it's a bit extreme. A better comparison would be a trial with both types of dogs entered.
 

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Except the Sieger Show showcases some of the worst performance as far as actual bitework and is not an actual trial, and the WUSV is the world championships for SchH with a full trial. You are comparing the worst with the best so it's a bit extreme. A better comparison would be a trial with both types of dogs entered.
Yes, that is true, but people are often impressed by "Sieger dogs" since that is a "big thing" for showline dogs. But you are right, it is a bit of an apples to oranges comparison in regard to the Sieger Show not being an actual SchH trial.
 

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Not all SchHIII's are created equal.

Think about it this way: John is the starting quarterback for Our Lady of Perpetual Sorrow University. Jim is the starting quarterback at Notre Dame. John and Jim are both college level quarterbacks. Does that mean they're equally as likely to get a professional contract?

Dog A might have earned his SchHIII on his home field with the same helper he's been training with since he was a pup. Dog B earns his SchHIII at a national-level competition on an unfamiliar field with a really intimidating helper he's never seen before.
Wonderful analogy!:hug:
 
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