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Discussion Starter #1
What are the consequences of buying a pup with an untitled mom? A breeder I am looking at sells pups at a lower cost when they come from untitled females (usually intended to be pets...not for show or future breeding). However, the breeder has told me that when she breeds to untitled females when they are young, she is always intending to title them after the litter. She also said that the untitled females come from healthy bloodlines and she would know what kinds of temperaments they are likely to have. What are your thoughts on this?
 

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Some people buy show dogs just as brood dgos with no intention to show, just for the bloodline. Some start showing and breed the female, then continue after the first litter. I think they might not want to bother finishing a dog that won't be a good producer. Imagine spending $$$ to finish a dog only to breed her and she's a dud. I have a friend who finished two females and neither one could conceive pups. So no foundation female for her and many $$$ down the drain.

Look at some famous pedigree's, not all of the dogs there are titled.
 

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"Hi, I'm Dr. Smith."
"Oh, where did you go to med school? You look kind of young to be a doctor."
"I haven't actually started college yet. But that's ok, both my parents are doctors."
 

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The purpose of titling a dog is to find out for sure about its nerves, drives, temperament, and intelligence. I'm sure it evaluates other things but those are all I can come up with off the top of my head. She can't know for how her bitches are going to go through the titling process if she hasn't taken them through it yet. You can't go just by looking at the parents, after all we've all got a black sheep brother/sister/cousin. How do you know your puppies mom isn't the "black sheep" until she's been tried?
 

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What lines? Have you seen the dogs and visited the kennel? Have you seen dogs she's titled? Where are other pups she placed? Have you asked for and contacted recommendations?

Sounds a little shaky to me.
 

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My dog is from untitled parents, at least I think so. But her parents were purchased as a breeding pair from a very reputable kennel, and they are the products of generations of titled dogs. They have all the health certs and I met them both. Both dam and sire had the temperment I was looking for (as evidenced by my eight year old playing with them and doing lots of stuff wrong but they remained unflappable) Her parents are not listed in the database but her grandparents are.
I am getting nothing but positive feedback from the Schutzhund club regarding my dog's potential. She's doing great, and is everything I had hoped for in a family dog, and then some.
So the owner of my dog's parents didn't train them for Schutzhund. But she could have, and it would only have raised the price of my pup, not made her a better dog.
Would I even consider breeding my girl without a title? NO WAY, because that's the only way I'll know she'd be worthy to be bred (along with hips and elbows, and a breed survey and then even if everything were perfect I'd have to think long and hard about it)
Bottom line is- I got lucky.
 

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The other thing is that the comment about the dogs being young and we will title them later....
You cannot test for Schutzhund 1 until 18 months of age. That is before you are even able to OFA cert the hips. Are they breeding earlier than this? Why not title first? Are they breeding before they cert the hips?
 

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The Germans and some other countries certify joints at 12 months old. They also have rules and recommendations about many other things, including the age of the dogs being bred. If you look on the USA website, search for "litter registration" regulations to get an idea. I believe there are some minor variations from the German system, but this should give you a good idea.

The original poster asked "What are the consequences of buying a pup with an untitled mom? " One "consequence" is that the pup cannot ever be VA rated - however, most won't be anyway ;).

I'd say look at the whole picture of what you are getting into - with any purchase. Temperament of the sire and dam (meet both whenever possible), health, depth of hip ratings in the pedigree, reputation of the breeder, your "rapport" with the breeder, etc.

Just my humble opinion.

Christine
 

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If her dam does get titled later can her offspring get VA rated, or does the title have to be in place at the time of whelping?
 

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If the dam gets titled, show ratings and an SV accepted breed survey then her offspring would be able to get a VA rating. As previously mentioned this top show title is only given at a Sieger Show and most dogs will never be of the quality to receive it.

I just glanced at their site, but it seems that they do title the dogs from their brreding program. If the dam is being trained and the want to see if she can get pregnant and the quality of pups she produces before they title her it is ok if she is young - if they are using the smae "excuse" when the dog is older I would be suspicious.

My working line girl's mom wasn't titled when she was born, but she got her BH shortly after weaning the pups, then got her titles, show rating, AD and breed survey. Sometimes people do give a dog a little time to grow up before titling them, but they are working the dogs prior to breeding them.
 

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I agree with GS Mom, after seeing the web-site.
If this is a test breeding, to see if and how the dog produces, before titling.
I would say its OK as long as they are in training & hips pass & good pedigree.
It is a common practice in German Show-lines breeders.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Well, it looks like some of you are saying this practice is OK and some are saying it looks suspcious. Below I copied and pasted exactly what the breeder e-mailed me:

** removed by Admin. Private emails should not be posted. Please sumarize only***

Does that clear it up at all? I get the feeling that she is talking about doing what GS Mom and Deejays_Owner are talking about.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I just got another e-mail from this breeder (Baerental). I had asked her what the consequences are of buying a pup from an untitled female. She also sells some pups at a lower cost who do not come with a hip/elbow guarantee. So, I asked her to explain that to me as far as what it implies about the pup's hips/elbows. Here is her response:

"** removed by Admin. Private emails should not be posted***"

What do you think? I haven't yet asked her at what age she breeds her younger females.
 

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Originally Posted By: HBHI get the feeling that she is talking about doing what GS Mom and Deejays_Owner are talking about.
I think so too. There's a difference between not titling a parent YET, and not intending to title a parent EVER.
 

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sorry, i can't tell....is she breeding the female b/f getting hips/elbows certified? is that why there's not a guarantee, or is she not guaranteeing for another reason?

i can understand you may not have finished titling a dog and breeding it, especially if you've already been working w/the dog towards titles, but to breed w/out hips/elbow certification (if i understand that correctly) would be a big issue to me. yes, the xrays cost $, and you might want to know if the dog can produce, but - i don't know, it doesn't seem entirely ethical. i'm looking at buying a mal in the next year or so, and the breeder i'm talking to would never ever breed without doing health checks first - she lost a GSD she loved dearly at a young age to epilipsy. checking out hips/elbows before breeding seems basic to me, but i'm sure the breeders on this board who actually know about it will be able to weigh in.

unless, like i said, i'm misunderstanding the breeder's emails.
 

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Originally Posted By: HBH
If all goes well with her first litter, I would normally be intending to get her titled and do all the necessary breeding tests after that first litter. Selling a puppy for less without the guarantee means nothing in terms of any likely hood of developing hip dysplasia.
This is why I would go somewhere else. Not being titled yet and not having the proper breeding tests done first are two different things, IMHO.
I believe this statement to be inaccurate because she's saying that not having the hips certified first is OK. You don't know if the dam has HD herself unless you test her. If she does, than it absolutely will increase the chances that her offspring will as well.
Red flag for me.
 

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Yeah I would wonder why someone would breed a bitch before certfiying the hips.
Go elsewhere. Too many good ones not to pass on even the slightest suspicions.
 

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and trust me....having unknowingly adopted a dog w/HD....any money you save on the puppy b/c it doesn't have a guarantee will be lost and more, 10X over, if the puppy does end up w/dysplasia.
 
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