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Discussion Starter #1
right now i am mixing 1/3 raw and 2/3 kibble

Samuel is 18weeks old, the kibble i'm using is Wellnes Core Puppy Chow for Large Breed.

the raw meat is either ground chicken or ground beef. i also add "chicken stock" broth to his bowl which helps the raw meat mix in with the kibble.

two or three times a week i will add in one egg to either his breakfast or diner.

two or three times a week i will add in some cottage cheese to either his breakfast or diner.

admittedly he is over weight, so i'm planning to cut back on the amount of kibble (and use a 50/50 raw kibble mix) until he leans out

i'm also planning to start switching him over to an Adult Large Breed Kibble.

is there anything wrong or missing from his dietary needs by feeding him a mix of raw meat and kibble?
 

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right now i am mixing 1/3 raw and

2/3 kibble = Samuel is 18weeks old, the kibble i'm using is Wellnes Core Puppy Chow for Large Breed. If you are not feeding the recommended amount of kibble for your pup, he is not getting correct vitamins and minerals and could mean trouble down the road. Using plain ground meat does NOT have all of the essential nutrients that a puppy needs.

the raw meat is either ground chicken or ground beef. i also add "chicken stock" broth to his bowl which helps the raw meat mix in with the kibble.


is there anything wrong or missing from his dietary needs by feeding him a mix of raw meat and kibble?
Yes,
The raw meat you are using is not balanced with appropriate vitamins and minerals. You need to find and use a commercially prepared BALANCED diet like one below for your pup to get the nutrition he needs. Once you decide on a balanced raw food, I would give a raw meal separate from the kibble meal.
IF you are going to mix the kibble and raw, first soak the kibble in the broth for a time, then add the BALANCED raw meat, then feed. Any leftover should be kept in the frig until the next feeding.
Bravo: Discover Balance Raw Diet | Beef Frozen Raw Dog Food Diet - Bravo Pet Food Find a store: Find a Bravo Retailer - Bravo Pet Food NOTE Feeding Guide Tab on the page.


Northwest Naturals: Beef - Northwest Naturals Find a store: Store Locator Feeding Calculator: Feeding Calculator - Northwest Naturals


Primal: Complete Raw Diets for Pets: Canine Beef Formula Find a store: Primal Pet Foods: Store Locator Pronto is smaller pieces: http://www.primalpetfoods.com/product/detail/c/15/id/58 NOTE: After filling in the questions, use the reference for POUNDS or CUPS (this is Raw Food) in the feeding calculator: http://www.primalpetfoods.com/education/calc


The Honest Kitchen has a nutritionally appropriate dehydrated "Base Mix" to which you can add plain ground meat, if you want to get away from the Wellness kibble. https://www.thehonestkitchen.com/dog-food/base-mix


The other items for toppings are fine.

Hope this helps!
Moms :)
 

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At 18 weeks I would prefer to see a puppy fed three times a day. I have always fed raw food with kibble, and my usual approach is to replace the mid meal with a chicken quarter so puppy is getting bones, meat and fat. In addition I feed heart, kidneys, liver and necks when I get them as well as whatever berries or fruit/veggies I can get. All my dogs liked carrots, and I use the large ends for teething and chews a lot. Blueberries are good for everyone!
 

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You now have 1/3 of a growing puppies diet completely unbalanced. Just buy a commercial raw.
 

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OP, it may help to understand why people worry about puppy nutrition so much: there's not much room for error. Screwing up the nutrition during growth can have permanent bad effects on the skeleton for life -- even creating deformities that can't be fixed.

You're probably thinking "but I'm buying good kibble, so how could I screw up his nutrition by just adding some meat to it?" Here's how:


Large breed puppy foods are formulated with very specific calcium/phosphorus, ash, protein, and fat ratios for slow, steady growth. Meat adds phosphorus. So if you take a balanced kibble and then add a bunch of meat (= a lot more phosphorus), you're throwing off the critical calcium/phosphorus balance that the kibble was designed to achieve. Now it is no longer balanced for optimal large breed growth!

If you don't want to put him on commercial raw because it's so expensive, and you really want to do it yourself, then as a novice, you really should be using NRC guidelines and a spreadsheet tracking micronutrients for your puppy --there are some experts here who've been doing it so many years that they don't need to do that, but for regular folks just learning, it's pretty important.

Monica Segal (a respected nutritionist and author) will do consultations to come up with a balanced puppy formula if you want homemade that complies with NRC guidelines -- monicasegal.com, but it costs about $400:
https://www.monicasegal.com/Puppy_Consultation.html
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
@ Momto, i didn't know there is such a thing as "commercially available balanced raw meat". i've just been getting Samuel's raw meat from the local grocery store or walmart and mashing it up to mix in the kibble with the broth.

@ Jax08, Samuel is 18weeks and weighs 33/34 lbs. on the Purina Body Contion Chart he's at least a 5/6, so i don't understand how he could be a 1/3 of a growing puppies diet

@ Sabis, i too would like to feed him 3 times a day, but i live alone and work an 8 hr job, so 2x a day is all i can do :(

@ Magwart, thanks for the advice! i live alone and work all day so i can't do the total raw meat diet :( would it help any if i added a little calcium to the mix or still unbalanced

hmm, i'll have to check into the "commercially available balanced raw meat" and mix that with his kibble? otherwise have him first finish his kibble and then later for a "treat" give him some raw meat?

obviously i want a healthy pup, but i also thought some raw meat was good for carnivores
 

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I have no idea how you misread my post

You took 1/3 of his diet that was a complete and balanced food and replaced it with just meat. 1/3 of his diet is now NOT balanced. You are missing all sorts of vitamins and minerals. Calcium, zinc, manganese, iodine, and about 20 others.

Just buy a commercial raw if you want to partially feed raw.
 

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yep yep

i just found a couple of local feed stores that between them carry the Primal, Bravo, and Home Kitchen brands of "commercially available balanced raw meat".

so i think i will turn the remaining ground beef into hamburgers for me :) and finish out the remaining ground chicken (7ounces worth) by mixing it in with one of the above...

i've never fed "commercially available balanced raw meat" before so i should probably do my homework on it, but given that you guys have got 10k posts between you, i think i could consider you as "experts"

it still couldn't hurt to give him an egg or a couple Tbls. of cottage cheese once in a while, right? and Samuel loves him, loves him, loves him, some smashed up chicken necks. i guess those will become "healthy treats" :)
 

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If hes overweight, why are you feeding him extras like cottage cheese? Just feed him his food, a balanced food for a growing puppy.

I have fed raw for years but I will not feed homemade to a puppy. You ruin their bones now and you own it.
 

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Cottage cheese = extra calcium. It's the other side of the coin from feeding extra meat (= extra phosphorus). Either way you are screwing up the calcium/phosphorus ration in the large breed puppy formulated food.
 

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@ Momto, i didn't know there is such a thing as "commercially available balanced raw meat". i've just been getting Samuel's raw meat from the local grocery store or walmart and mashing it up to mix in the kibble with the broth.

would it help any if i added a little calcium to the mix? NOOOOOO :wink2: extra calcium can settle in their joints.

hmm, i'll have to check into the "commercially available balanced raw meat" and mix that with his kibble? No
otherwise have him first finish his kibble and then later for a "treat" give him some raw meat? Yes, a small amount....for a treat.
Then do some research on how to feed raw meals which are made up of certain percentages of meat, bones, and organs. Many threads here on this subject.


obviously i want a healthy pup, but i also thought some raw meat was good for carnivores Yes, it is, and you were trying to do the right thing by your pup! So don't fret.... You just need to learn how to do it correctly!
Sorry, forgot he was a puppy. The Honest Kitchen "Base Mix" is not for young puppies.
But they do have other varieties of Complete & Balanced meals, such as LOVE for puppies. You don't need to add anything.

Moms :)
 

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yep yep

i just found a couple of local feed stores that between them carry the Primal, Bravo, and Home Kitchen brands of "commercially available balanced raw meat".

so i think i will turn the remaining ground beef into hamburgers for me :) and finish out the remaining ground chicken (7ounces worth) by mixing it in with one of the above...

i've never fed "commercially available balanced raw meat" before so i should probably do my homework on it, but given that you guys have got 10k posts between you, i think i could consider you as "experts"

it still couldn't hurt to give him an egg or a couple Tbls. of cottage cheese once in a while, right? and Samuel loves him, loves him, loves him, some smashed up chicken necks. i guess those will become "healthy treats" :)
I have taken ground meat and pressed it into small patties that I then freeze and give frozen as treats. Small, like 4 oz patties. Just a treat.
The issue with the just meat thing is that when an animal eats another animal it eats all of it. Skin, bones, organs AND stomach contents. Since most canines hunt and scavenge their diets are much more varied and it is not uncommon for them to eat other foods such as berries and other growing things along with bugs. Up to 70% of the average wolf's diet is comprised of small rodents and vermin, so think of the grains and grasses that they ingest. Coyotes are even higher. Foxes exist almost entirely on mice and birds.
To put that in perspective a mouse almost all organs, skin, bone and stomach with almost no meat.
 

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I have a question about calcium and phosphorus for large breed puppies. Is the percentage of each as important as the ratio? I'm seeing a recommended 1.2 to 1.8 for calcium and 1.0 to 1.6 for phosphorus, with a recommended ratio of 1.1 to 2.1. I'm looking at a very high quality food that has 1.1% calcium and .9% phosphorus, just below the minimum recommended percentages. But the ratio (if I'm doing the math correctly) is 1.23, which is within the recommended ratio. Should I avoid this food until older?
 

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Discussion Starter #16
thanks to (almost) all, i think you've given me a good plan going forward...

@ Jax "you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar" in this case i'd give your comments more thought/time/attention/credence if your tongue (or in this case typing) was not so sharp. just sayin'
 

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If you choose to take my advice in that manner, then it's on you. Im working and have very little time to sugar coat things with flowers and rainbows. I'll make sure I don't waste my time giving you input from years of experience and research again. Good luck with your puppy.
 

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If you choose to take my advice in that manner, then it's on you. Im working and have very little time to sugar coat things with flowers and rainbows. I'll make sure I don't waste my time giving you input from years of experience and research again. Good luck with your puppy.
thanks
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
so i found a local pet store that sells both Fromm kibble and Primal Raw nuggets :)

so Samuel is now on a 1/4 raw (smashed up Primal Pork Nuggets) and slowly switching him to 3/4 of the Fromm grain-free pork puppy kibble, from his Wellness Core puppy kibble.

is it ok to go with all pork? the shop-keeper said that most dogs will digest pork easier than other meats?

he does still get a smashed up chicken-neck as a treat before bed

Momto2GSDs you've been very helpful in getting me on the right track, THANKS
 

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I have a question about calcium and phosphorus for large breed puppies. Is the percentage of each as important as the ratio? I'm seeing a recommended 1.2 to 1.8 for calcium and 1.0 to 1.6 for phosphorus, with a recommended ratio of 1.1 to 2.1. I'm looking at a very high quality food that has 1.1% calcium and .9% phosphorus, just below the minimum recommended percentages. But the ratio (if I'm doing the math correctly) is 1.23, which is within the recommended ratio. Should I avoid this food until older?
@Magwart?
@Momto2GSDs?

Can you guys help me out here? The adult food has a pull date of next April, so I can hold off until she's older and get some LBP in the meantime but I need to place an order today or tomorrow for it to be here in time.
 
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