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Discussion Starter #1
Hi all,
Im going to give you alot of info so hang on. Maybe this info will help you understand where we are coming from and what kennel/kennels would be best for us to look at in Michigan.
I/we have had 3 German Shepherds over the last 40 years and now we are looking for a good breeder in Michigan. Our breeder has quit breeding for health reasons and she only knows breeders that have the "slope" backed shepherds.
Our last German Shepherd was a "slope back" shepherd but we are not interested in a "slope" backed shepherd this time.
We are looking for a straight backed shepherd which i call "old fashioned".
We dont care about Blk/Tan, Blk/Red, or Sable because thats not what we are interested in. We want good temperment, average or above average intellengence and a structurely sound male shepherd with medium energy, medium prey drive, medium defenceive drive, good ball drive, and socialized to some extent. A working dog is alright but must be able to relax indoors.
We will as always take the pup to basic and advanced training classes.
Titles are good but why the craze for Europeian shepherds?
One thing, we do not want a UKC shepherd.
We have seen shepherds that weight an astounding 130 lbs but thats not what we want. We would prefer a full grown male shepherd to be from 85-95 lbs.
We have contacted quite a few breeders and visited a few but still not happy with what we have seen. Some kennels have terrible conditions. Some are ok but the staff dont seem to interact well with the adult dogs.
We would like our pup to have been socialized in home with children.
We have found a "hobby" breeder that breeds her females after 2 years old and only once a year which sounds good to us.
S n S German Shepherds | Grayling, MI 49738
If you know of her any comments about her? (Send a PM if needed).
We live in the lower third of Michigan but are willing to drive most anywhere in Michigan to purchase the right male pup.
We live in a quite neighborhood and have a quite household with no other animals and no children at home but plenty of children in the neighborhood. 6 foot privy fence on 3 sides with a 6 foot chain link fence out front.
We live about 5 minutes walking time from the cities River Walk which either east or west is miles long and 15 minutes walking time to over 300 acres of swampy flood plain woods with small swampy areas, lots of wild life, fallen trees that the dog can jump over or crawl under and trails (which 2 of us guys cut years ago) that take about 3 hours to walk.
We brisk walk or slow jog our dogs every morning unless in a blizzard, thunderstorms or heavy rain for about an hour.
In the fall after i have laid off everyone (seasonal work), usually around Thanksgiving, we take our dog to the woods for 3 hours 2 or 3 times a week and to a dog park once every weekend and i roller blade our dog every once in awhile on the River Walk.
Our routine to maintain the dogs coat is brushing every other week but during the shedding period we brush as often as needed, trim the toe nails as needed, and include 1 teaspoon of Cod Liver oil once a day every day in their evening meal. We also give them pet tabs plus. We clean their ears as needed and rub Protecta-pad into the pads everytime we brush and or trim their toe nails. Fresh water every morning, after i get home, before the evening feeding and before we go to bed.
Our dog goes to the vet every year in the fall for a complete checkup and in mid summer for a complete blood workup.
We love the German Shepherd breed and do our best to keep the breed healthy although we have never bred our males. We have been asked many times to breed someones female but if they cant show me the AKC papers, all vet records, and able for me to see the female in its normal surroundings, plus see the parents i wont breed their female.
With all of this and i know its alot of info can anyone comment about SnS shepherds or direct us to another breeder/breeders in michigan?
Thank you,
L/S
 

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One thing I would like to see are dogs OFA'd hips and elbows, I only saw 1 on the link you listed, others listed as "unknown",,doesn't mean they haven't done it, I just did not see it listed in their pedigrees , that would be a deal breaker for me.

As to breeders in Michigan, I'm sure there are more that I am forgetting, but I would check out Wildhaus, Chris is a moderator here.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Hi JakodaCD OA,
Thanks for your quick reply:)
I will get back to SnS this evening and see whats what with the lack of OFA'd hips and elbows and yes that would be a deal breaker for us.
I must have missed the lack of OFA'd hips and elbows:hammer:
I will check out Wildhaus this evening.
Again, thanks for the quick reply and the help.
L/S
 

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I wonder why the breeder just doesn't put the pedigree/health or titles right on the website...obviously from their own 'about me' description, they've been doing this for ever.
I would go to some clubs and watch training, make contacts in your area(2 hour drive is an 'area'!) and see the different dogs working. There are quite a few small hobby kennels in MI, and Wildhaus is (one of the) top... they breed on a limited basis, so waiting is a given. I couldn't be happier with my Wildhaus pup.
Are you closer to the east coast or west coast of MI?
 

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Hi onyx'girl,
I wonder why the breeder just doesn't put the pedigree/health or titles right on the website...obviously from their own 'about me' description, they've been doing this for ever.
We are wondering the same thing.
I have just finished going over Wildhaus's site and very impressed!
I would go to some clubs and watch training, make contacts in your area(2 hour drive is an 'area'!) and see the different dogs working
This might be dificult to do as i work 6 days aweek except Sundays but if evening classes i could swing it.
they breed on a limited basis, so waiting is a given
Thats fine with us because it will be around Thanksgiving that we would be able to pick up a pup. I will be off from around thaksgiving till April 1st which gives me time to get the pup used to our routine and used to us being away for up to 8 hours a day. Also during that time we can sign up for basic and advanced training evening classes for the pup.
Are you closer to the east coast or west coast of MI?
We live in Lansing about a 5 minute walk from Potters Park.
I noticed that Wildhaus gives a Limited Registeration till 2 years of age with hip/elbow evaluations and a working title or certification. I understand the hip/elbow evaluations but not sure what they mean by working title or certification. I kind of know but would you clearify that please.
Thank you,
L/S
 

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Not speaking for Wildhaus, but most breeders limiting registration requirements:
The reason for that is that they don't want people breeding their pups(kennel name may be compromised) without titles or health testing. The breeder may make exceptions if the venues you train in require full registration, (best to talk with the breeder for your individual wants/needs.)
Even then, breeding is an art and should be taken seriously, so people getting a pup with the intention of breeding will have to jump through hoops to get full registration.
If they aren't into that, there are other breeders that will sell with a full.
GSD's that show they are breedworthy is done most often thru training/titling/health tests and then matching pedigree properly after you know the strengths/weaknesses..which can only be revealed thru training/titling.

There are a few clubs that train on Sundays in the area(again possibly a two hour drive!) I would try to visit several and don't rush into a decision without seeing many different lines and knowing exactly what type of GSD will most fit your lifestyle.
 

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Some breeders, before they will give full registration (usually for the purpose of breeding) will require the owner participate in a working venue that titles or certifies the dog. Examples would be one of the SAR certifications or a title in Schutzhund (IPO), herding among others. Breeders often do this because they want to promote the working heritage of the German Shepherd when the progeny of their breeding programs are bred.

If you don't plan on breeding then a limited registration should be fine.

The extent of this type of requirement varies from breeder to breeder but IMHO it's the sign of a breeder that cares about the integrity of the breed.

Ironically since the AKC here in the U.S. doesn't require titles or certs in working venues to breed GSDs, it is up to the individual breeders to ensure standards in the U.S. IMHO having some standards for working dogs, like they have in Germany and other Euro countries really isn't such a bad thing....

(in edit: onyx girl I'm a slow typer...LOL!)
 

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FWIW, "slope back" typically refers to European lines. "Straight back" typically refers to American lines. From my research and experience anyway. That may help when you are looking at breeder sites and they talk about the pedigrees of their shepherds. I am not a fan of BYB or hobby breeders as they typically over breed, are not careful to genetic test or certify hips and elbows or temperament test. However, you may get lucky and find a good one. I do not know of any breeders personally in MI, but this forum is great for advice and I am sure that someone can lead you in the right direction. Good luck in your search :) oh, and the craze with European lines, in my experience and research, is that the breeding standards are much higher in Germany (not familiar with other European countries) than in the USA. I realize that there will always be those that give a bad name, but this is in general. Same with what I mentioned above. There are exceptions to every rule.


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On, when I mentioned BYB or hobby breeders....I only am referring to those like I described. I should not have said "hobby" as there are plenty who do not do this full time but are very responsible when they do. You just have to be careful.


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No. American Showlines have a lot angulation which gives them a sloping topline.

Working lines tend to be less extreme (U.S. bred or European).

However, there does seem to be a trend now in the showlines (euro and US) to more moderate angulation/structure.


FWIW, "slope back" typically refers to European lines. "Straight back" typically refers to American lines. From my research and experience anyway. That may help when you are looking at breeder sites and they talk about the pedigrees of their shepherds. I am not a fan of BYB or hobby breeders as they typically over breed, are not careful to genetic test or certify hips and elbows or temperament test. However, you may get lucky and find a good one. I do not know of any breeders personally in MI, but this forum is great for advice and I am sure that someone can lead you in the right direction. Good luck in your search :) oh, and the craze with European lines, in my experience and research, is that the breeding standards are much higher in Germany (not familiar with other European countries) than in the USA. I realize that there will always be those that give a bad name, but this is in general. Same with what I mentioned above. There are exceptions to every rule.


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FWIW, "slope back" typically refers to European lines.
Not really. People usually refer to AmLines in this fashion. Drives me nuts :p
 

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FWIW, "slope back" typically refers to European lines. "Straight back" typically refers to American lines. From my research and experience anyway. That may help when you are looking at breeder sites and they talk about the pedigrees of their shepherds. I am not a fan of BYB or hobby breeders as they typically over breed, are not careful to genetic test or certify hips and elbows or temperament test. However, you may get lucky and find a good one. I do not know of any breeders personally in MI, but this forum is great for advice and I am sure that someone can lead you in the right direction. Good luck in your search :) oh, and the craze with European lines, in my experience and research, is that the breeding standards are much higher in Germany (not familiar with other European countries) than in the USA. I realize that there will always be those that give a bad name, but this is in general. Same with what I mentioned above. There are exceptions to every rule.


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The structure within lines isn't geographically limited.
Euro working lines don't have the roach or slope back and neither do many Euro SL's.
It is how they are bred to the extreme, not where they come from.
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A hobby breeder, IMO is one that does not take shortcuts, and doesn't breed often/they are working their dogs and training...not breeding just to breed, but breeding because the breed is their passion. And researching the breed and different traits within lines because it is their 'hobby' so they know pedigree information that the normal 'pet' person would never delve into .
I don't think the hobby breeders are to be compared to a 'byb' whatsoever.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Hi onyx'girl,
Not speaking for Wildhaus, but most breeders limiting registration requirements
We have noticed and understand that.
people getting a pup with the intention of breeding
We are not going to breed our shepherd unless the owner of the female can produce what i require stated in my first post......at least.
GSD's that show they are breedworthy is done most often thru training/titling/health tests and then matching pedigree properly after you know the strengths/weaknesses..which can only be revealed thru training/titling.
We understand that also:)
There are a few clubs that train on Sundays in the area(again possibly a two hour drive!) I would try to visit several and don't rush into a decision without seeing many different lines and knowing exactly what type of GSD will most fit your lifestyle.
Knowing what GSD would fit our lifestyle would be decided by the breeder after an interview. Right?
You mentioned
small hobby kennels in MI
I would like the name of some others. We want to check out all we can before July. Nothing against Wildhaus at all:)
What working titles is Wildhaus referring to?
What is the difference between a working title and certifaction?
Gwenhwyfair and Xeph, thanks for the info. ill be going off line in a few minutes but will be back tomorrow evening.
You guys/girls are great:)
L/S
 

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Generally ceritifications are for dogs doing work in the feild (Search and Rescue, Police K-9, Service dog for a disabled person).

Titles are garnered in sports like Schutzhund, Agility, Herding, Conformation shows.

The requirements of the titles and certs vary by breeder.
 

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That's why I clarified. There is a difference between BYB and hobby. I should not have said hobby originally. I am not an expert, just going by my own experience and what I have seen, at least where I live. Maybe the differences in lines are more pronounced with the breeders here. Not sure. The American line breeders that I have come across don't appear to have the slope but the European lines are more pronounced. Like I said before, I am not trying to say that it is always like this. Where I live, the slope issue seems to be reversed from what is being posted on this thread. It's interesting to me that the responses are so different from what I have seen. Goes to show that things can vary from one area to the next. If I was wrong in what I said before, I stand corrected. I tried not to generalize. The reason I made a point of talking about BYB is that anyone can throw up a site, use well sounding language and even outright lie and families get taken advantage of and the breed suffers. It drives me crazy.


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The best way to figure out what Wildhaus' requirements are is to contact them and talk to them. Chris (female) is very willing to talk to people and help them out. She is also an ADMIN on this board. :)
 

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and there is also Lisa above in Michigan:)
 

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Most people I talk to who are not conversant with type will watch dog shows on cable TV or go to an AKC show. They will call the AmSL dog 'sloped' or 'crippled looking' Thus comes the desire for the "old fashioned" or "straight backed" dog. I have been approached by many many many people at the bigger AKC shows when I did obedience (Pittsburgh, Cleveland Christmas Classic, New Castle 4 day Memorial Day show) who "ohhh and ahhh" over the working line dog as it is what they perceive a GSD should look like. A couple of people who also show WGSL dogs get the same treatment from spectators.

"banana back" will generally refer to certain lines of WGSL dogs. But 'sloping' is definitely the slang for ASL dogs due to the stack set - and the Euro working line becomes "straight back" by default and because it is much more easily seen in a normal stance.

Lee
 

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Banana backed and bunny footed.... ;)

My mid 80s ASL had fairly severe angulation as a consequence her topline had a sloping appearance even when moving freely.

I've seen pics of 'stacked' workinglines that give the appearance of a sloping topline....I'm thinkin' it maybe time to dump the extreme positioning for pics too. JMHO.
 

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I'm in Michigan and these are people I know/dogs I've actually met

zu Treuen Haenden
Wildhaus
Full Force K9
vom Flussblick
Alta-Tollhaus
vom Haus Huro

So depending on what line of dog/type of dog I was interested in, these would be some kennels I'd start with if I were limiting my search to Michigan.

If you absolutely don't want UKC-only then that rules out Cher Car in St. John's, though I'm not sure why it matters unless you plan to breed the dog or show in AKC events? UKC is a very reputable registration, over 100 years old, and many GSDs are registered in both.
 
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