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K9 police man i talk with sometimes told me that most of the dogs here are mal gsd crosses? Some are pure gsd or mal but most are crosses between the 2 ?> Anyone know why? I looked it up and google some people call this KNPV lines? Strange.

WAs wondering if anyone out there knows about this.
 

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Depends on the dog....a good GS is great dog, a good Mal is a great dog, and a good Mal/GS cross is a great dog....but you also have some in all three that are not good for LE. But the percentages for getting a good working Mal, Mal/GS cross is probably higher....that's why you see them....especially in KNPV work.
 

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Depends on the dog....a good GS is great dog, a good Mal is a great dog, and a good Mal/GS cross is a great dog....but you also have some in all three that are not good for LE. But the percentages for getting a good working Mal, Mal/GS cross is probably higher....that's why you see them....especially in KNPV work.
Is this because of a blending of traits, or does the much greater difference in DNA (and yet still statistically so small a change lol) bring or do something unique?
 

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In a nutshell, 'hybrid vigor' Both breeds are good in and of themselves, but as an end user dog, a cross will bring that hybrid vigor in to the dog that *can* make it better/healthier than either breed individually.

Ang
 

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The genetics that made the GSD a great working dog have largely been lost. Some people like Helmut Raiser have advocated cross breeding to the Malinois in an effort to save the breed. The show line people ruined the breed.
 

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In a nutshell, 'hybrid vigor' Both breeds are good in and of themselves, but as an end user dog, a cross will bring that hybrid vigor in to the dog that *can* make it better/healthier than either breed individually.

Ang
Yes but the much greater difference in DNA, as I understand, will make the offsprings traits be a crapshoot
 

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The genetics that made the GSD a great working dog have largely been lost. Some people like Helmut Raiser have advocated cross breeding to the Malinois in an effort to save the breed. The show line people ruined the breed.
There are still really really nice genetics out there. Not lost, just rare and I don't believe appreciated well. The fact that the best sport dogs, best PPD/MWD/Police K9's, best service animals, and the house dogs are rarely related in any way is a major problem.
 

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There are a few really strong GSDs out there, but they are extremely hard to find and I would still argue that the original genetics that created the breed are lost. If you look at some of the photos in The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Pictures, by v. Stephanitz, you will see the dogs doing things that no modern GSD is capable of. One photo shows a GSD scrambling up a straight tree to a height of 13 feet. Von Stephanitz writes about testing a dog by charging the dog on horseback and the dog charges back toward him and jumps up and bites the horse on the neck so hard he had to beat the dog off with his riding crop.
While the protection sports at least try to select for working ability, I would argue that schH has resulting in selecting for some of the wrong genetics. All that is really needed is very high prey drive and big grips. There is no evaluation of environmental insecurites. The gun shot was taken out of the BH, so now a gunshy dog can pass. The sport is primarily an obedience sport, so dominance is selected away from. The bite scenarios are so totally predictable that the dog needs very little courage. The sport is more about the trainer than the dog. The SV is about money, not the breed. That is why the highline dogs generally are an embarassment to watch in the bitework. The helpers are coached on how to go easy on the dogs in the Seiger show. IMO, they are not nearly the working dogs thet were originally bred to be. Not to mention the health problems.
 

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There are a few really strong GSDs out there, but they are extremely hard to find and I would still argue that the original genetics that created the breed are lost. If you look at some of the photos in The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Pictures, by v. Stephanitz, you will see the dogs doing things that no modern GSD is capable of. One photo shows a GSD scrambling up a straight tree to a height of 13 feet.
Haven't attempted a tree, but I have mailboxes, vehicles, trashcan's, handrails, bar stools, cat scratch trees... I'm sure my female is agile enough. I've been encouraged to make a "Katya on things Maddie can't get on" page lol

Von Stephanitz writes about testing a dog by charging the dog on horseback and the dog charges back toward him and jumps up and bites the horse on the neck so hard he had to beat the dog off with his riding crop.
There are many dogs that will charge and bite in these scenario. Most I would gather are doing it with far more prey influence than aggression. I believe in this case it should be aggression that is the dominate state of mind here. Still there, but rarely appreciated... or its there without the nerve structure to not be a complete a-hole in all aspects of its life.

While the protection sports at least try to select for working ability, I would argue that schH has resulting in selecting for some of the wrong genetics. All that is really needed is very high prey drive and big grips. There is no evaluation of environmental insecurites. The gun shot was taken out of the BH, so now a gunshy dog can pass. The sport is primarily an obedience sport, so dominance is selected away from. The bite scenarios are so totally predictable that the dog needs very little courage. The sport is more about the trainer than the dog. The SV is about money, not the breed. That is why the highline dogs generally are an embarassment to watch in the bitework. The helpers are coached on how to go easy on the dogs in the Seiger show. IMO, they are not nearly the working dogs thet were originally bred to be. Not to mention the health problems.
I agree entirely. I have been reprimanded for being to harsh in courage tests. I'm a 140lb 5'8" dude... and in most cases was nervous enough about doing trial helper work on unknown dogs or regional/national/world level dogs, that from a dogs perception I probably looked like a panicked deer that happened to run the wrong direction by accident lol. And when I see a dog get a pronounced rating and the judge talk about the power it displayed, it makes those comments or ratings in our work meaningless to me which sucks... like when you went to a 4 year school and worked your butt off, and are pigeon holed into the same payrate as someone who had a mail-order "pay enough and you pass" degree online (yes I know there are good degrees online, but there are also exceedingly bad ones). Or when kids go to a 4 year program for underwater basket weaving or a B.S. in Cocktail Conversation... it makes my degree in engineering hold less value.

This is why I switched one dog to another sport as his greatest asset is his ability to work in aggression and take whatever pressure a decoy can deliver, and as this is not really appreciated in IPO it makes our primary quality moot as he is not a light-speed maneuvering pop & flash kinda dog no matter how his accuracy is. As soon as the female is at the 3 she will likely also be moved to another sport
 

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I regularly train with a K9 handler/decoy/trainer and we all know my male isn't the ideal IPO dog, but every K9/PPD/MWD person we come across says "man, he'd be an incredible street dog" including him... if a dog can be amazing at one and blah at the other, thats either a breeding issue, or regulations/judging issue (and likely both)
 

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and yet in other thread it was said byb gsd are out there doing police work -- do not know any dept that has the time , money, or manpower to go around testing, taking a chance --- easier to go to the broker who can have several selections and replacements if needed should one wash out.

I don't know how that byb is good thread spawned and then days later another byb thread where people piped up and said byb bad , source of our problems, value is free or minimal. Head still spinning.

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The genetics that made the GSD a great working dog have largely been lost. Some people like Helmut Raiser have advocated cross breeding to the Malinois in an effort to save the breed. The show line people ruined the breed. "

If you examine the canine genomic study you will find dogs that are closer in dna and intention than the malinois , if a cross has to be done , which is already included in the mixes that von Stephanitz brought together.
Malinois has "wolf" , this other breed , like the GSD on the genomic study has molosser - the pastoral guard / herd/ hunt dogs which the Romans took on their empire making through Britain and continental Europe.
they fought the wolf .
 

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and yet in other thread it was said byb gsd are out there doing police work -- do not know any dept that has the time , money, or manpower to go around testing, taking a chance --- easier to go to the broker who can have several selections and replacements if needed should one wash out.

I don't know how that byb is good thread spawned and then days later another byb thread where people piped up and said byb bad , source of our problems, value is free or minimal. Head still spinning.

"
The genetics that made the GSD a great working dog have largely been lost. Some people like Helmut Raiser have advocated cross breeding to the Malinois in an effort to save the breed. The show line people ruined the breed. "

If you examine the canine genomic study you will find dogs that are closer in dna and intention than the malinois , if a cross has to be done , which is already included in the mixes that von Stephanitz brought together.
Malinois has "wolf" , this other breed , like the GSD on the genomic study has molosser - the pastoral guard / herd/ hunt dogs which the Romans took on their empire making through Britain and continental Europe.
they fought the wolf .
Its been my experience that police dept's k9 training, handling, and genetic quality runs the full spectrum of superb to "I am horrified that dog is on the street"
 

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Some police k-9 departments have crappy dogs and trainers.
Not sure how your comments on genetics match mine. Traits that made the GSD a great working dog have been selected away from. The whole idea of having highlines and workinglines tells you a lot.
 

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Some police k-9 departments have crappy dogs and trainers.
Not sure how your comments on genetics match mine. Traits that made the GSD a great working dog have been selected away from. The whole idea of having highlines and workinglines tells you a lot.
I agree with what you just said lol. They are selected away from. Some of the best sport dogs are ill suited for any other role. Same for the other roles of the GSD including the role of "looking like a GSD". I'm just saying, there are a small and shrinking set of folks who still have the right mindset and breed that way with what is still available. I don't think its lost entirely. Also, the DDR showed how dramatic the breed can be changed in short order through a rigid breeding program not motivated by individual interpretations/misunderstandings/financial gain. What has been bred away from *could* be fully expressed in a short time if so chosen for. I'm horrified about how to go about getting the dog I want years down the road b/c of how hard it will be and how everyone and every breeder believes their dog(s) are the ideal.
 

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If you were to go to Europe and look for these original traits that GSD used to have, do you think you could find them in some European dogs? I have been researching the breed for a year now which isn't very long but in this short time I have come to realize that the popularity and the Americanization of the breed essentially killed it.
 

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Roman molosser . Look familiar?

von Stephanitz in his book did say nothing to be gained by adding malinois, so if a cross were to be done "to save the breed" I don't think this is the route to take.
 

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If you were to go to Europe and look for these original traits that GSD used to have, do you think you could find them in some European dogs? I have been researching the breed for a year now which isn't very long but in this short time I have come to realize that the popularity and the Americanization of the breed essentially killed it.
if *I* sourced a dog from Europe I'd expect to get fleeced lol. They aren't stupid and theres plenty of exploiting wealthy Americans who believe "import" is synonymous with "quality". I don't think the dogs out of Europe are any better than those here in the US. Certainly the concept of "good GSD's are imported, end of story" is no longer true. Both mine are born on US soil, however both have imported parents, so I don't believe it is as though there is a long standing genetic divide between US sourced and imported dogs.

It is really two breeds now.. show and working, and it could be argued to be subdivided under that. Show and working lines are *very* different physically and mentally.
 
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