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I just uttered a mass of curse words reading about the microfilariae. I was so afraid this was going to happen. Knowing to do a smear before transport is just something the people arranging the transport should have known to do...and the vet who signed off on the international health certificate. Crap.

Sending you a PM about what needs to happen with educating the people who did the transport.

Yes, getting her on started on Doxy now is important. We usually start Doxy on day one coming out of the shelter, and if we're doing fast-skill, we start the 3 mo. countdown on prevention, and then schedule fast-kill at the end of that (= October). That will give her 2 months off of Doxy, after being dewormed, to get her body stronger to prepare for treatment -- that's better for her.
 

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Discussion Starter #62
Update (short)

Today I touched base with Carmen to order her products. Very first thing I thought of when they told me she was HW+ was Feed-Sentials (right after the whoa that is).
With all that has been dumped on this little girl in such a short time and what is yet to come (now) and in a next 3-4 months...I am confident that this supportive care is going to make all the difference in how she responds and gets through this.
I am lucky to have the knowledge and contacts, resources and support from this forum to assist her and me along the way.
I don't imagine other doggies and the people who took these dogs on are so lucky. But I will try to get the word out.


Oh, and BTW, the vet loved the name Lil so much she incl. it in her paperwork with blood sample (with slash) "Frosty/Lil"...just in case that's what I changed to...When she phoned to tell me the dx she referred to Lil, LOL...but asked if ok...
 

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If I have to give pills I try to get turkey hearts and I put them right in the hole. Chicken hearts work to, but they are smaller. I figure it's easier then stressing the dog out. I could easily put down the throat but the hearts used as pill pockets works much better.
 
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Discussion Starter #64
If I have to give pills I try to get turkey hearts and I put them right in the hole. Chicken hearts work to, but they are smaller. I figure it's easier then stressing the dog out. I could easily put down the throat but the hearts used as pill pockets works much better.

That's a great idea!... especially for raw fed dogs...never thought of that with Gator, but I could pill him no problem. Liquids, no.


Been using Orijen kibble as treats (bought couple sample bags, heck of a lot cheaper then their actual treats), she doesn't inhale a treat, she takes it and chews.
Right from the get go with the metro...
I put her food in bowl, showed her the pill, told her if she wanted this she would have to take that. I just opened her mouth and stick it down her throat, gave her food.
The panacur granules, I use canned tripe, no chance she missed a single granule, she licked the bowl across the floor.


She is going on doxy for 3 weeks after the panacur...If I have to pill this dog for few months, she might as well learn. Thankfully she is food motivated (over the top!)
 

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Sounds like you and Lil are doing ok. She definitely landed where she has everything she could need or dream of. Soundslike her food motivation is a true plus. Thinking about you two. Give her a hug for me.
 
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Discussion Starter #66
WOW, holistic vet.

So after leaving a couple messages, my (G's rather) holistic vet called me back tonight.
I had left message outlining Lil's health issues and wanted to do phone consult after send blood work to her, along with conventional treatment she is on at this time as well as future.
I know that she IS going to get supportive therapy, but wanted help to make sure nothing contradicts, as well, not detox too fast, and get her "emotionally" stable, also to further aide in her recovery (she needs to be relaxed during treatment and die-off)






She told me, that a) she doesn't need to be treated for HW, and that treatment is highly toxic. She also told me that immiticide does not need to be used and that the US has a drug that kills as effectively with less toxicity. She said banned in Canada. Wouldn't tell me name of what is used, but said further, it is still used in Florida, Louisiana and other southern states and mostly at shelters.


THEN, she says...IF she is going to take her on, that I have to commit 100% to her protocol...and leave the rest behind...Said for me to take a couple days to think about..


BUT, If I choose to go on the path chosen so far...then said, I don't mean to sound (pause...lost word), "ignorant"....(my mental word search was crass.)..anyhow, implied, not to come to her for fallout.


Isn't it unethical to say to a client..."My way or the Hwy."?


I think her arrogance supersedes her integrity...


Not surprised really


Incidentally, Immiticide is not available in Canada either. Vets have to fill out special request "emerg" forms to have it shipped over boarder
 

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Discussion Starter #68
Lil got her package today!


She LOVED her extra special bonus that came with!!! Extra special THANK YOU to Carmen for this...means a lot....now how much do I give? She just licked it right out of the bowl, no mixing...


I gave her late night meal with small amount of canned tripe and a nominal amount (tsp.) of Feed-Sentials (to start off) and she hoovered it! She is such a foodie, lol.


Thank you so much Carm for expediting this...


I wish my Holistic vet wasn't so arrogant, I think she would support this product, however, I think we will part ways. I am looking into another holistic vet. At least my Conventional vet is on board with supportive therapies AND felt she should not have any pesticides for fleas and ticks (despite the surge this yr.), she wants to focus on ridding the worms, treating the anaplasmosis, immune support (my job as she cannot legally go there) to get Lil strong for what is the worst to come.
 
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Discussion Starter #70
Doesn't need to be treated for heartworm?????

I think she meant in the manner prescribed - immiticide. She was short with return call.


I am interested in what she was referring to. Upon review of Magwarts very detailed and thoughtful post, I am wondering if she means Advantix (was that what was called?, so many). Have to go back and check this. But I am open to trying "intermediate" as Magwart referred.


I'm more miffed that she said all or nothing.
 

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During immiticide treatment, you have to keep them on strict crate rest for 2 mo.--STRICT -- even going outside to potty has to be on leash. They can get NO exercise. The heartrate can't get elevated. The reason? As worms die, they embolize in the lungs, landing in the capillary beds. You want them to die and embolize slowly, one or two at a time. With a fast heartrate, a clump of dead worms can break off at once and clog a pulmonary artery. That can create a life-threatening emergency. If the emergency happens, they can die quickly, gushing blood out of their nose and mouth -- they have to be rushed to a vet ICU with an O2 tent and supportive care if there are any complications. When I have a dog going through this in rescue, I work with fosters to know the fastest route to the closest emergency vet, even in the middle of the night....because even though the chance is very low that they'll need it, you have to move fast if it happens.

So...assuming no complications, which is likely ... if all goes well, you've put the dog on abx for 30 days, on pred for 2-3 months, injected it with arsenic 3 times, and killed the adult HWs. As you well know, now you set about rebuilding health. It's a crappy, crappy situation, but death from HW is worse, so my HW dogs stay on probiotics, bovine colostrum and other goodies through treatment and beyond. There are other heart-supporting supplements we can talk about if you get her.

7. Slow kill as an option? The old way of doing slow kill was put them on a very low dose of ivermectin prevention that killed the worms in 2-3 years. During that time, they're in there doing major damage to the heart, lungs, and circulatory system. Some vets theorize that they'll have shorter lives if that happens.

Somehow, some way, vets in the trenches in LA (where more than half of big dogs are HW+ and most people can't afford immiticide treatment) figured out that you could use Advantage Multi for slow kill, with doxy. We've used it for several years. Other vets in other places thought it was nuts, until researchers associated with AHWS came out with published paper recently showing that we aren't nuts -- it does actually kill HWs. The fastest I've had a dog test negative with Doxy, Advantage Multi, and no other treatment is 9 mo. (compared to 5 mo. for fast kill -- 3 mo. of prevention, 2 mo. of shots). I've had a few take 18 mo. Lost and lots (big majority) of rescue dogs have tested negative at 12 mo. So I think of this as "intermediate kill" (not as slow as ivermectin, but not as fast as immiticide).

The kicker is we don't have to put them on strict crate rest during this. They can walk (but not jog). They can play and be normal dogs who just don't exercise hard. That's doable. We don't yet know if these dogs will have shorter lives, but we just haven't seen any serious complications doing this. We know that it's working really well, esp. for dogs who have other issues that prevent them from going through immiticide treatment. So we do both -- some dogs who are good candidates for immiticide get it, others who aren't get Advantage Multi, and we do our best to just get as many of them cured one way or the other as we can.



Note: Advantage Multi is marketed as Advocate in some markets outside the US. I'm not sure which one Bayer uses in Canada. It's a RX-only product.

This ^^^
Not Advantix, ...Advantage Multi.
The conventional vet said something about Interceptor???? Forget the context.
 

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So after leaving a couple messages, my (G's rather) holistic vet called me back tonight.
I had left message outlining Lil's health issues and wanted to do phone consult after send blood work to her, along with conventional treatment she is on at this time as well as future.
I know that she IS going to get supportive therapy, but wanted help to make sure nothing contradicts, as well, not detox too fast, and get her "emotionally" stable, also to further aide in her recovery (she needs to be relaxed during treatment and die-off)






She told me, that a) she doesn't need to be treated for HW, and that treatment is highly toxic. She also told me that immiticide does not need to be used and that the US has a drug that kills as effectively with less toxicity. She said banned in Canada. Wouldn't tell me name of what is used, but said further, it is still used in Florida, Louisiana and other southern states and mostly at shelters.


THEN, she says...IF she is going to take her on, that I have to commit 100% to her protocol...and leave the rest behind...Said for me to take a couple days to think about..


BUT, If I choose to go on the path chosen so far...then said, I don't mean to sound (pause...lost word), "ignorant"....(my mental word search was crass.)..anyhow, implied, not to come to her for fallout.


Isn't it unethical to say to a client..."My way or the Hwy."?


I think her arrogance supersedes her integrity...


Not surprised really


Incidentally, Immiticide is not available in Canada either. Vets have to fill out special request "emerg" forms to have it shipped over boarder
Wow. Nice attitude.
I would certainly not play that game. Shadow has a holistic vet and she is very aware that I have a conventional vet as well. No problems.
My dog my rules. No one gets to tell me what to do. And pretty sure they can't tell you no. I thought it was some violation for a vet to refuse care.
 

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I don't know of anyone treating HW with Interceptor, and I'm in LA, know lots of shelter vets , and have a private-practice vet with a huge rescue client-base. If they're doing it, they're not talking about it. It would actually surprise me for it to be going on and not hear about it, but it's possible. I have heard of a few vets trying the Proheart6 injection to kill HW -- I'm leery about it because it was pulled off the market briefly for severe side effects in old and sick dogs, so it's now labeled for use only in healthy/non-senior dogs...and thus using it in a HW+ dog seems risky to me. (It's an injection that is supposed to give 6 months of HW protection; it uses the same active ingredient as Advantage Multi, which is probably how someone got the idea to try it. However, it's a bigger dose, all at once via injection, compared to the the smaller "pulsed" topical dose of Advantage Multi....thus the risk profile is different.) We do have one HW+ dog in rescue now that some vet used Proheart on before we got her, and she's had no complications; now we're waiting to see how long til she clears...so I have no data points yet besides this dog. I've also heard of a few vets in the New Orleans area using Trifexis for slow-kill, and I'm personally not keen on that because that's a product that already has a lot of reports of side effects in healthy dogs. We sometimes have to use slow/intermediate kill for high-risk dogs who can't go through immiticide, so I want to minimize risk and not take crazy chances on side effect cascades with them.

Advantage Multi (Advocate) is actually being studied for use this way -- so it's no longer a just weird thing done by vets with poor clients who can't afford immiticide. You can pass on this paper citation to your vet, so that she can read and you all can discuss it pros and cons -- Dr. McCall, one of the co-authors, is a former board member of the American HW Society, and has published several papers on HW treatment:
Chandrashekar et al., Experimental Dirofilaria immitis infection in dogs: Effects of doxycycline and Advantage Multi®administration on immature adult parasites, Veterinary Parasitoloty 206 (2014) 93-98
http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.vetpar.2014.08.011
These same co-authors have another paper on juvenile HWs using the same method. This one here is the next iteration, showing it also works on young adult HWs. I have a hunch they're working on a third one, with older adult HWs, but that final iteration is the missing research puzzle piece.
 

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It's very ugly for a holistic vet to refuse to support you in rebuilding the dog and helping her through this tough treatment.

It's absurd for the practice of veterinary medicine (of any flavor) to be treated like a religion, where you have to believe and accept all the tenets or you're excommunicated. I don't want to have to "believe" in any practitioner. I dislike evidence-based vets who scoff at all supplements and natural diets, based on no evidence; I also dislike holistic vets who scoff at all Western medicine based on mere personal feelings. The good ones use what works, talk respectfully and openly about pros and cons, read widely so that they know what's being researched, are willing to be proven wrong, can discern valuable modalities, and strive to protect clients from "snake oil." They're not dogmatic -- they're constantly searching. The goal is to partner with clients in finding real solutions, minimizing risks, and constantly learn along the way.

If that holistic vet went to vet school, she had to have studied science at some point. If she studied science she will have hopefully had some chemistry courses. Herbal healing functions using chemistry....the bioactive compounds in plants are "just" chemicals -- good and bad. Arsenic, which is what immiticide is made from, is "natural" (occurring in the environment), but that tells us nothing. The dose makes the poison.

It looks like Advantage Multi is sold under the Advocate brand-name in Canada:
https://www.canadavet.com/advocate-C157.aspx
 

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Discussion Starter #75
Thank you Marwart. I will have to dive into this a little further later. I am giving a rest between the panacur for few days before starting doxy.
I am going to send link to Conventional vet as well copy your informative posts and print off for her to have a copy and discuss. I am not sure what context Interceptor was mentioned.


As for the Holistic vet, I can make an appointment and see what she has to offer...I don't HAVE to do anything she wants...MY DOG
But when I questioned not even giving her doxy, she said not even doxy (for anaplasmosis)...SHE gave Gator doxy, citing he had lyme...he didn't he never had lyme disease. It ripped his guts apart and turned his teeth yellow for nothing.
She had scripted certain herbs...I don't do anything without looking into. One she sold me, there was laundry list of side effects. I never gave it. He died 6 months later of hemangio. She blamed me for not giving.


Some things I trusted, some I didn't. And if I didn't, I didn't do it
 
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As for the Holistic vet, I can make an appointment and see what she has to offer...I don't HAVE to do anything she wants...MY DOG
But when I questioned not even giving her doxy, she said not even doxy (for anaplasmosis)...SHE gave Gator doxy, citing he had lyme...he didn't he never had lyme disease. It ripped his guts apart and turned his teeth yellow for nothing.
She had scripted certain herbs...I don't do anything without looking into. One she sold me, there was laundry list of side effects. I never gave it. He died 6 months later of hemangio. She blamed me for not giving.

Some things I trusted, some I didn't. And if I didn't, I didn't do it
Gatorbytes, I'm just offering my thoughts on this last part since Lil is looking at a difficult road, and assuming that the cost will be up there, if it were me, I wouldn't spend time or money in a vet that you are not completely comfortable with and confident of her expertise. I don't think that you or your pup can afford (time wise and emotional wise) a vet who has no issue with a my way/highway attitude.

If your regular vet has no problem working with or knowing that a holistic vet is also helping, maybe he knows of a good one whose only concern is giving your pup the best of chances.

I'm saying this because even though I like my allopathic (sp?) vet, there have been times where my questioning certain things turned out to be correct but my dog was healthy otherwise and I had the emotional stamina to research everything he had said.

I cringed at your last sentence with her blaming you. That is unfathomable and I'm sorry for such a horrible thing that was said to you at a time when there should have been nothing but compassion.
 

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Discussion Starter #77
Gatorbytes, I'm just offering my thoughts on this last part since Lil is looking at a difficult road, and assuming that the cost will be up there, if it were me, I wouldn't spend time or money in a vet that you are not completely comfortable with and confident of her expertise. I don't think that you or your pup can afford (time wise and emotional wise) a vet who has no issue with a my way/highway attitude.

If your regular vet has no problem working with or knowing that a holistic vet is also helping, maybe he knows of a good one whose only concern is giving your pup the best of chances.

I'm saying this because even though I like my allopathic (sp?) vet, there have been times where my questioning certain things turned out to be correct but my dog was healthy otherwise and I had the emotional stamina to research everything he had said.

I cringed at your last sentence with her blaming you. That is unfathomable and I'm sorry for such a horrible thing that was said to you at a time when there should have been nothing but compassion.

Thank you. I appreciate what you said. And yep. The vet, there is some pain there for sure...I left a message with her helper as well on voice mail...I specifically said I was looking at "supportive care" I didn't want to do anything that could contradict with all that is going on between disease and meds and toxicity from and her being underweight and traumatized...I want to get her in balance, and I thought she could help. She is a DVM, but maybe she is off her nut (IDK)...
If herbs (like Ashwagandha which I was thinking for emotional balance, and milk thistle for liver etc.) were going to contradict conventional meds...SHE WOULD KNOW...however...**** her! :)
 

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Thank you Marwart. I will have to dive into this a little further later. I am giving a rest between the panacur for few days before starting doxy.
I am going to send link to Conventional vet as well copy your informative posts and print off for her to have a copy and discuss. I am not sure what context Interceptor was mentioned.


As for the Holistic vet, I can make an appointment and see what she has to offer...I don't HAVE to do anything she wants...MY DOG
But when I questioned not even giving her doxy, she said not even doxy (for anaplasmosis)...SHE gave Gator doxy, citing he had lyme...he didn't he never had lyme disease. It ripped his guts apart and turned his teeth yellow for nothing.
She had scripted certain herbs...I don't do anything without looking into. One she sold me, there was laundry list of side effects. I never gave it. He died 6 months later of hemangio. She blamed me for not giving.


Some things I trusted, some I didn't. And if I didn't, I didn't do it
She blamed you???
Oh I would be going to see her alright but it wouldnt be for a consult.
 

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OMG I am so sorry you are going through all of this. It is hard enough to be trying to help your dog without vet problems.

I wish I knew more to help. But it is wrong for them to treat you this way. Heck my hubby and I went to a Dr when my son was 3 or 4 the Dr wanted to do a surgery and take his stomach and flip it upside down. As soon as he left the room my husband and I looked at each other and where like heck no. We didn't say a word acted like we where going to go along with things and got the heck out and never went back.

There are some very knowledgeable people on this site. I am glad you are on it. I pray you will do what is best for your dog. Just know sometimes the "experts" vets or holistic don't know everything. Trust your gut and always research the best you can.
 

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Discussion Starter #80
She blamed you???
Oh I would be going to see her alright but it wouldnt be for a consult.

here is the comment I posted at the time about her from G's hemangio thread...After he passed away, I had called and left a message that he was gone and thanked her and thought she should know. No return call, no condolences, no card in the mail.


"Geez, just spoke with my holistic vet. I had left message on wed but never heard back.

She said to get Yunnan Chinese herb. to go knock on doors in Toronto.

I had been to her in sept. She gave me 2 herbal tinctures. Graviola and Bloodroot. Graviola has a laundry list of side effects incl. vestibular type reaction and Bloodroot you can barely find any info.

She questioned if he was getting these.

She told me small bleeds were painful to which I questioned why the vet wouldn't script tramadol if that were the case.

Anyhow, she basically said to call them if that's the route I want to choose, then said good-bye dear and hung up.

Found her to be a little snarky:mad:
Anyhow, I doubt her tinctures are going to save him."
 
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