[xenabella]

Has anyone else heard that you should feed higher energy dogs more carbs? To release more seratonin in their brains, thus making them more calm. I would have thought higher protien would have been better?

 

[LisaT]

Actually, the main "energy carb" in dog food is corn, which is a serotonin inhibitor and will have the opposite effect on behaviour that you describe, because it's deficient in tryptophan (unless the dog food supplement tryptophan, which I haven't seen yet).

(When I was training, the first thing we did was take the dogs off a high corn food for better concentration and focus. Often the change was dramatic.)

But yes, high carbs for short spurts of energy in humans. Long term energy you want lower carbs and high fat. Dogs however, are not humans, and I believe that their digestive system is better suited to protein and fat than carbs.

It's hard to imagine a dog really "needing" a high carb diet, and always important to remember that carbs (sugars) feed cancer.

 

[carmspack]

second what LisaT just said .
Dogs metabolize fats and proteins .
I had the privilege to work with a professional sled dog racer to prepare his dogs for the season's competition circuit , which included the Iditarod . The energy came from fat -- unadulterated , in other words raw fat, not heated fat or drippings which many people resort to and wreaks havoc on digestion. Added chicken fat to the diet.

Carmen

 

[Trainer-Breeder]

second what LisaT just said .
Dogs metabolize fats and proteins .
I had the privilege to work with a professional sled dog racer to prepare his dogs for the season's competition circuit , which included the Iditarod . The energy came from fat -- unadulterated , in other words raw fat, not heated fat or drippings which many people resort to and wreaks havoc on digestion. Added chicken fat to the diet.

Carmen

Respectfully, this is completely false and misleading. First, while dogs should be metabolizing fat for energy, many do not and its not because of what they eat. Fat is metabolized once a dog reaches an aerobic state (fat adaptation) and since many dogs are not in competition-like physical condition and only receive normal amounts of activity like running in the yard or playing at the dog park, they actually burn more carbs than fats. Protein should never be used as an energy source. It is extremely inefficient as a source of energy. Protein is best used for muscle repair and not energy. It has been shown in sled dogs studies by Kronfeld that even highly stressed sled dogs do just fine on a dry food with 32% protein.

LisaT's post is equally false and purposely misleading. She is referring to one study where rats were fed ONLY corn protein, which is low in tryptophan. Even the worst junk dog foods with corn have other sources of protein. The rest of LisaT's post is also false.

The moderators should remove both these posts.

Now back to the OP's question, the answer is kinda yes and kinda no. It depends on the type of activity and what physical condition the dog is in. Greyhounds do benefit from greater amounts of carbohydrates because they need easily converted sources of energy. So a dog that does a lot of short-burst activity will find carbohydrates a more ready source of energy.

 

[JakodaCD OA]

excuse me, your second post here and I don't see 'your' credentials

You might want to go to the Introduction forum and introduce yourself it will make you more credible.

 

[ladylaw203]

Corn is not good for our dogs so the main thing to look for in a food is the source of the carbs. Corn is traditionally the source in lower end dog foods. Feed a high quality grain free dog food and your dog will be fine When mine are on a tough deployment,hunt tests etc I give them a little canine red cell.

 

[Trainer-Breeder]

Corn is not good for our dogs so the main thing to look for in a food is the source of the carbs. Corn is traditionally the source in lower end dog foods. Feed a high quality grain free dog food and your dog will be fine When mine are on a tough deployment,hunt tests etc I give them a little canine red cell.

These people never stop.

Please show me real science where "corn is not good for dogs".

I want to see a peer reviewed scientific study showing this. Whole grain corn is just as good as any other form of carbohydrate like rice, barley or oats. In fact, in some cases it can be better.

 

[Trainer-Breeder]

excuse me, your second post here and I don't see 'your' credentials

You might want to go to the Introduction forum and introduce yourself it will make you more credible.

No, take some time to research what the others said and you will find virtually everything stated as completely false.

 

[JakodaCD OA]

maybe so, but again, I don't see any of 'your' credentials to make such a statement.

What do "you" feed?

 

[ladylaw203]

It is a known fact that corn is an allergen. This is nothing new. You show ME studies showing it is okey dokey. I have personal experience for 25 years feeding all breeds. I have seen for myself what happens when feeding corn. THEN I did research Also, with the recalls later due to cheap Chinese corn being used. no thanks.

If a dog is doing well on what they are being fed, rock on. For those whose dogs have issues, they need to look further.

Exactly what do you feed? How many dogs and what breeds do you have?

 

[Trainer-Breeder]

It is a known fact that corn is an allergen. This is nothing new. You show ME studies showing it is okey dokey. I have personal experience for 25 years feeding all breeds. I have seen for myself what happens when feeding corn. THEN I did research Also, with the recalls later due to cheap Chinese corn being used. no thanks.

What exactly is YOUR experience with feeding,training, etc etc dogs.
Exactly what do you feed?

I respect what you do in service to the community. You are an angel for that but you are dead wrong about corn as an allergen. There are at least 7 peer reviewed studies that put corn between 1% - 3% of real food allergies, which is just slightly higher than rice. Also, most dogs with allergies react to multiple protein sets, so frankly the dog has a bad immune system.

If your dogs has a real allergy, 90% chance it is Chicken, Beef, Eggs, Dairy and isolated wheat protein, not whole grain wheat.

Again, you are an angel but you are completely wrong.

I do agree in one respect, I will only use human-grade non-gmo grains.

 

[ladylaw203]

those are not the studies I have read and not been my experience in the 25 years that I have been importing breeding and training,
Now, I will say one thing. there are tons of pet mixed breed dogs out there doing well on grocery store food. Personally, I think the mutts have a stronger system. We lose something in the linebreeding that we do. That being said. I have helped a ton of folks get their dogs off of cortisone shots by taking them off of a grain based cheap dog food. Right or wrong.,tons of GSDs have issues with it. I feed Orijen to all of my dogs,but I will say, that my labs and goldens were on junk from Wal Mart and looked fine when I bought them. so there ya go

 

[Jax08]

There are at least 7 peer reviewed studies that put corn between 1% - 3% of real food allergies, which is just slightly higher than rice. Also, most dogs with allergies react to multiple protein sets, so frankly the dog has a bad immune system.

If your dogs has a real allergy, 90% chance it is Chicken, Beef, Eggs, Dairy and isolated wheat protein, not whole grain wheat.

Could you please cite your references so all can learn?

Your posts sounds so familiar but I just can't quite place them. Have you posted here before?

 

[I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO]

Could you please cite your references so all can learn?

Your posts sounds so familiar but I just can't quite place them. Have you posted here before?

Hmmmm, I wonder...

 

[Trainer-Breeder]

those are not the studies I have read and not been my experience in the 25 years that I have been importing breeding and training,
Now, I will say one thing. there are tons of pet mixed breed dogs out there doing well on grocery store food. Personally, I think the mutts have a stronger system. We lose something in the linebreeding that we do. That being said. I have helped a ton of folks get their dogs off of cortisone shots by taking them off of a grain based cheap dog food. Right or wrong.,tons of GSDs have issues with it. I feed Orijen to all of my dogs,but I will say, that my labs and goldens were on junk from Wal Mart and looked fine when I bought them. so there ya go

It is impossible you read any real studies showing corn (or any grain for that matter) was a primary cause of allergic reactions. They simply do not exist.

http://www.raynenutrition.com/uploads/Food allergy in dogs & cats Review.pdf

This study in Belgium looked at a bunch of other peer reviewed studies and found that all the proteins in grains combined, excluding wheat gluten, totaled just 10%. Corn doesn't even have it own category.

From Dr. Susan Wynn:

"Fallacy 4: Grains cause allergies.
Fact: If dogs have the genetic predisposition to develop food allergies, they can become allergic to certain foods. A recent review of 7 studies indicates that dogs are most commonly allergic to the following foods (in descending order): beef, dairy, wheat, egg, chicken, lamb/mutton, soy, pork, rabbit and fish. In cats, the most common allergens are beef, dairy, fish, lamb, poultry and barley/wheat (in equal numbers), egg and rabbit in equal numbers. I will admit that I’ve seen higher numbers of corn allergy than would be suggested by these numbers, as well, but please note that grains do not constitute the majority of allergy offenders."

Dr. Wynn is no lover cheap foods, I can tell you that:

"Susan Wynn, DVM
Dr. Wynn is a graduate of the University of Georgia’s College of Veterinary Medicine. She completed a clinical internship in Washington, D.C., and a fellowship in viral immunology at the Emory University School of Medicine. She is co-author of 4 books on holistic medicine, including Veterinary Herbal Medicine, Manual of Natural Veterinary Medicine: Science and Tradition, and Complementary and Alternative Veterinary Medicine: Principles and Practice. After 20 years of clinical practice, she recently completed a nutrition residency with the University of Tennessee’s College of Veterinary Medicine. Dr. Wynn also writes, teaches and speaks on the subject of clinical nutrition and integrative medicine. She is also certified in acupuncture, chinese herbal medicine, and in western herbal medicine through the American Herbalist Guild.

Dr. Wynn has served as the executive director of the Veterinary Botanical Medicine Association, president of the American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association, and on the boards of the American Academy of Veterinary Nutrition, the American Academy of Veterinary Acupuncture, and the Georgia Veterinary Medical Association. She is a native of Atlanta and after many years, is again living in Sandy Springs GA. She lives with 2 cats and a part-time dog. When spare time can be carved out of her schedule, she enjoys hiking, cooking, riding horses, travel and gardening."

 

[doggiedad]

my last GSD didn't do well on high quality food.
on one of our Vet visits the Vet suggested
feeding him a lesser quality food. i started feeding
him Alpo or some other not so good stuff and he
was fine.

Now, I will say one thing. there are tons of pet mixed breed dogs out there doing well on grocery store food. Personally, I think the mutts have a stronger system.

 

[Lauri & The Gang]

they actually burn more carbs than fats.

So if a dog is NEVER fed any carbs how would that affect their energy level?

It has been shown in sled dogs studies by Kronfeld that even highly stressed sled dogs do just fine on a dry food with 32% protein.

I don't want my dogs to do "just fine". Stray dogs on the street that live off garbage do "just fine".

I want my dogs to be in the best possible physical condition that I have the ability to get them to.

 

[Holmeshx2]

Wow how can someone join a forum and within their first few posts completely offend people that are well respected and have been extremely helpful to others and tell moderators to remove their posts because they didn't agree with what they said..

Also have to agree on the posts sounding familiar. Highly argumentative and defending corn with their dieing breath... definitely sounds like someone who used to post.

Goes without saying but completely agree with everyone else so far on using more fats and proteins NOT carbs for energy. Plenty of working dogs that do actual work (not just running around the yard) that are completely grain free as in never having rice, oats CORN, or any other grain.

 

[Trainer-Breeder]

So if a dog is NEVER fed any carbs how would that affect their energy level?



I don't want my dogs to do "just fine". Stray dogs on the street that live off garbage do "just fine".

I want my dogs to be in the best possible physical condition that I have the ability to get them to.

I don't think you understand the point. If sled dogs at the height of training in very cold and nasty conditions remain in peak condition on a food with 32% protein why do you believe more is better? More protein for the average dog is waste at best and damaging at worst. "Just Fine" was just an expression.

What is the upside to using more than that level? More is not always better. I would be surprised if any large breed adult needs more than 25% protein.

A dog that receives no carbohydrate will not have as much endurance and will lose weight. In the long run the dog's health will suffer. There is a bunch of unpublished research that performance dogs on low carb, grain-free diets have much less endurance than dogs eating more traditional diets. I have actually seen young dogs collapse from hypoglycemia.

"The latest research in Europe shows us that true performance dogs have no stamina on grain free formulas, they tend to run hot, fast, then plummet. What works best for these performance dogs is a meat based diet from multiple protein sources (from meats), high fat and then as a low carbohydrate source - ideally a blend of oats/brown rice OR oats/corn (high quality/low gluten corn) in order to sustain high energy performance levels. It has been shown that with a quality intact ground grain, low carb component, that the animal is better able to balance the insulin and glucose levels, especially when the dog is working. There has been NO real research done by any company on grain free foods at this point."

 

[Emoore]

To paraphrase the demon in Acts: Carmspack we know and LisaT we have heard of. But who are you that we should listen and obey you?