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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
What traits would you expect Lord vom Gleisdreieck to bring to his descendents? What might you also want to include in a breeding in which one of the prospective mates had him in his/her pedigree, i.e. what other lines would best balance his traits? When I say traits, I mean those that can (and were) tested in something like schutzhund, maybe herding, etc. In other words, the traits were measured and recorded. Anything anecdotal is also interesting.

I am asking because I don't know anything about pedigrees and bloodlines and would like to start learning. I also don't know anything about Lord vom Gleisdreick, except that he turns up in the pedigrees of dogs I've been admiring.
 

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My closest experience with Lord was as the helper for a Lord grandson (Fiasco von Gebrueder Grimm x Cora vom Maerchenwald). This was a good looking, powerful dog with amazing grips and a pretty nice temperament overall. He stayed with me while his owner was out of town several times, and was reasonably social. He made overall V scores in SchH multiple times (pretty sure all phases, too). He could load up and become handler aggressive if corrected too much, or unfairly.
 

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Lord is a very tricky dog to catergorize and requires depth of knowledge of bloodlines to maximize his value. Lord has been in the pedigree of some of the great sport dogs of past 20 years. Lord has been in the pedigree of some of the great police dogs of past 20 years. Lord has been in pedigree of some of the great pet dogs of past twenty years. It all depends on the combinations and recombinations that arise out of Lord in a pedigree. Lord was known to insert good hunt drive in his progeny, he was a great source of working hips, definitely threw the reverse mask and sometimes fading pigment. I've seen Lord progeny with great grips and chewy grips. I have seen Lord progeny with great nerve and with nerviness. I have seen Lord progeny with strong active and passive aggression and Lord progeny that didn't possess either. I have seen dogs linebred on Lord,(most of whom I didn't care for) and I have seen some nice dogs out of linebred Lord.
One of the reasons for this, in my opinion, is Lord goes back through Jeff on sire side to grandsire Ingo v Rudigen. Ingo along with Bernd v Lierberg, are two of the most important dogs in the history of the breed in terms of producing the type of dogs that reflect what the breed was created for.
You will find both of these dogs im many many workinglines, Czech lines, and further back in many showlines in Europe. (Ingo more so in the DDR show dogs), Bernd in both DDR and German).
So to really get a feel for Lord's impact you really have to know the genetic history of the other dogs in the pedigree and how strong they are in areas that Lord is either weak or strong. Like, more times than not if you see a good working dog with a fading mask, good chance that Lord is in pedigree somewhere. He was that dominant in producing that mask even when bred to all Black dogs.(That's not to say that Black corrects a fading mask but Black dogs usually have a strong base pigment strength in term of pigment and mask)
I could go on about Lord traits forever, but suffice it to say he was a great overall dog especially when used to HELP achieve a type of working dog. I also have owned and bred Lord progeny to see some of this firsthand.
 

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Uniballer,
Years ago I owned a son of the brother of Fiasko v Gerbruder -Grim. I raised and trained the dog until he was two years old then he went to the New York State Police where he passed the academy and went on the streets. Very very nice dog.
 

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Lord would be pretty far back in a pedigree these days, wouldn't he? How do we measure the influence of the dogs as they get further back?
 

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Cliff really hit the nail on the head in terms of "it depends".

We have a Lord granddaughter with bad hips (moderate HD), a host of mild to moderate nerve issues, mediocre drive, very soft and handler sensitive but at the same time quite independent and not at all biddable, possessing absolutely none of the tracking talent or hunt drive typically seen in these lines. What aggression she has is completely fear based, and while she's quick to alert bark beyond that her coping mechanism for any form of pressure or threat is to run and hide under the bed. Great with other animals and very social with people in general, but iffy around children (they make her uncomfortable) and dog aggressive. She has a totally wonderful, sweet, in many ways comical personality in general and is a fantastic pet. But certainly not a working dog in health or temperament, and of course was never used for breeding. I've seen many, many other dogs out of her sire (a Lord son) with various degrees of the same issues except the tracking. Overall the others I have seen are excellent trackers. And like her, by and large wonderful general personalities making them good companions but in many cases no more than that.

Our foundation bitch was a granddaughter of Fiasko, so a Lord great-granddaughter. Strong, but certainly not extreme drives. Very balanced prey and defense, and would show good aggression if given a good reason to. Phenomenal tracking and hunt drive. Excellent health and hips. Very biddable, compliant, handler focused nature. A bit on the softer, handler sensitive side, but extremely resilient and totally environmentally sound. Nothing phased her. Wonderful with people, kids, other dogs, cats. She produced extremely well, with many excellent working dogs (and excellent pets) amongst her offspring, and now grand offspring.

2 dogs going back on Lord fairly close in the pedigree, yet 2 very different dogs with very different things to offer. It most certainly came down to what that Lord was mixed with in their pedigrees.
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Wow, thanks for sharing your knowledge so generously--gave my printer a workout!

Now, I've got more questions (sorry!):
1.) Anyone have ideas as to why Lord might "mix well" with Fero? Is this Fero v Zueterner Himmelreich?

2.) Hopefully someone can answer Samba's question as to how we can "measure the influence of the dogs as they get further back?"

3.) What, in your opinions, are some of the good combinations with Lord?

4.) What combinations, in your experiences, might it be wise to avoid?

Chris, your foundation bitch sounds close to ideal for my tastes. Will go to your website to answer some of my questions (#3 & 4). I also really admire the fact that you kept and loved the less desirable Lord descendent!

Once again, thank you all!
 

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I have a female that is a great-granddaughter of Lord on the dam's side and Fero on the sire's side. Not sure if that is applicable to your research.
 

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Years ago I owned a son of the brother of Fiasko v Gerbruder -Grim. I raised and trained the dog until he was two years old then he went to the New York State Police where he passed the academy and went on the streets. Very very nice dog.
I can believe that.

On the issue of the Lord - Fero combination look at the pedigree links for the parents of the Lord grandson I was talking about. The dam was a Troll daughter (i.e. Fero granddaughter).

My current dog is linebred (5-5) Lord, but I can't really attribute anything specific to Lord in his makeup. At that point I think he is just good blood in the mix.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I did, Uniballer! Figured I'd jumped the gun and posted to soon, so got my 6 generation pedigrees for both Cora, the dam, and Chila, the granddam. Noted Fero, got excited, then noted a lot of other names, and got stumped by my lack of knowledge!

Cliff, I carefully noted what you said about Ingo and Bernd (and have put their pedigrees aside for future reference). If you have any time to spare, I'd love to hear a bit more about your experiences with positive/negative combinations and recombinations of Lord in a bloodline. I always look for your posts, because they are so informative, but will quite understand if you do not have time to comment further here.

Liesje, I would love to hear what she might be like, and if you think that Lord brought anything specific to her makeup (working abilities, mental and physical). What might Fero have added to it?

I'm running out of paper, so will be getting to Chris's dogs a little later!

Thanks again!
 

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I also have a Lord great-granddaughter...a link to her pedigree is in my signature (Kessy).

She's a great tracker, and learns very quickly. She loves to please, and can be a little sensitive, but she can take heavy compulsion and will bounce right back. She has very high drive and is high energy. She is training for her HGH (sheep herding) title, and is doing really nicely - she would work all day long if I let her, she lives to work.
She is social with people and loves kids. She does have aggression but I don't see it very often, usually she is just a goofy happy dog.
Her nerves are solid, nothing phases her and she is very confident in all situations.

I have seen a number of offspring from Brix von der Kalenborner Höhe (a Lord grandson) and they were nice working dogs, however they were definitely very serious, not social to strangers, and could be handler aggressive especially if corrected unfairly. I am told Brix was the same way although I never got to meet him in person.
 

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Another important aspect of Lord in a pedigree is where does he appear?? Is he coming through the damside or the sire side. I personally like to see him come from the dam side as opposed to thru sire. Gary Hanrahan's dog Pirol had Lord coming through the dam side if I'm not mistaken. One of the things that has to be considered in a dog is whether the strengths of the dog are natural traits or are they enhanced traits. Many of Lord's strengths came from natural traits like tracking, hunt drive, aloofness, etc. These things are very seldom enhanced for breeding by most GS breeders but some dogs seem to throw them more than others. Then you have other traits that have been enhanced by specialized breeding over the years. Traits like grips, prey drive, shyness, aggression, size, angulation, etc have been emphasized by breeders to the point that some dogs have a genetic overabundance. This can be the result of purposeful breeding; like the over the top prey drive of some sport dogs, or an unintended consequence; such as shyness/weak nerves that come from extensive line/inbreeding for other physical traits. Nonetheless, Lord did not have much enhanced traits, so that breeders that bred to him looking to improve prey drive, hardness, grips, were often disappointed. He was much better to come in from a perspective of complimenting a type that was already developed by bringing good recessive traits to the mix. This is why I think that many people have such controversial views of Lord. Again, this is just conjecture on my part, but I have analyzed this dog in and out over the years.
More to come about Lord but want to review some pedigrees as I am talking off the top of my head at this point.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Chris and Cliff should co-write a book. They'd sell a million copies on this forum.
I'd be in line to get anything the two of them wrote!

Phgsd, Thank you for describing Kessy and for the link to her pedigree. I was able to note that Fero was in there, once on the sire's side and once on the dam's. The notes about Kessy made me click on one of the female's in that "extraordinarily strong line of females" and ... there was Bernd vom Lierberg in, I think, the 8th generation. So, I see both Ingo (through Lord) and Bernd, the two dogs I learned from Cliff that have produced the finest type of GSDs. Then, I notice that your Kessy has two HGH dogs (the dam and granddam of Uran vom Kirschental in her pedigree and that they appear three times on both the dam's and sire's sides. This is exciting, since she is obviously gifted at herding!

Big question for Cliff (and anyone else): If Lord (and, presumably, other DDR dogs) do not have much in the way of "enhanced traits," does this mean that the balance of their drives is closer to the balance found in the original herding dogs that founded the breed? Would that mean that there is a greater likelihood that herding abilities have survived in the DDR dogs. If so, then that might be another reason that Kessy is a natural for herding. What do you all think!!??
 

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I think herding instincts are present in a lot of GSD's today. I can't pinpoint exactly where Kessy's came from, but my first GSD (maybe 9 years ago) was from completely different lines (primarily west german workinglines), and I did some HGH herding with her as well. Comparing the two in training - my first GSD had much more straight "herding" drive and boundary insinct...Kessy has it but also has very high prey drive so it took time to get her to think and maintain the boundary vs. just wanting to chase sheep around.
Now Kessy still has the right instincts or she would never learn to maintain the border or move the flock, and she has a great feel for working the sheep which a lot of dogs never develop. But she is a challenge to work! Our trainer says that she is the type of dog who should work for hours a day, seven days a week, and he is 100% right. When she works for an hour (or sometimes two) a week, she's so amped up that it can be hard to keep her under control until she settles down. But once she does it's beautiful to watch.

Anyway - with my first GSD...she got the idea very quickly and I don't remember any struggle getting her to maintain the border, but she was super soft and at a slight correction she'd just quit working and getting her going again was difficult if not impossible. So she didn't make it very far. But the right instincts were there, and if she was a stronger dog I think she would have done well.

So I think a lot of GSD's (especially those from working lines IMO) can have potential to make herding dogs, and I can't pinpoint Lord as the source but can't rule him out either :)
 

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Wilhoit,
I think you're on to something. Yes, I think the DDR dogs are probably closest to the "type" of GS that was multi purposed and capable of herding and and utility work. Most DDR lines do have strong herding backgrounds 10 to 15 generations ago.(Some much closer up). But in the natural state traits such as herding are inherently there. The enhanced dogs of today often have stronger ehanced traits than natural, so its not that the natural traits aren't there, its just that they are overrun by the ehanced creation. Like take some sport dogs who have drives(prey) so enhanced that they have more drive than brains....well certain aspects of herding they have a hard time with because it requires the dog to settle and also not react but figure out first. Take other dogs that have been bred for certain physical traits(angulation, color, extreme gait) and they have less than stellar nerve or courage. They may do alright herding three little sheep that are dog broke to get a Herding Started title, but what happens if they really had to work the flock for real and the big ewe or hard ram challenges them and charges to do damage....take a guess, or suppose a thunder storm occurrs out in the pasture.....????no table or bed or crate to go to!!
My point is natural traits should not be overrun by enhanced trait for some specialty purpose. Many of the DDRhave the good natural traits but the specialist of today want more in the field they are from.
WhiteGS,
The position of the dog has relevance in reading a pedigree if you know the dogs and there traits and what they passed. Its very complex and goes into the male possessing xy chromsone and female xx chromosone. So depending on where the traits emanated from and whether or not they can be passed, (small example...if my male has his strong nerve coming predominantly through his Y chromosone....then he can't pass that trait to the females in the litter...this is a simple example but when you know the dogs and what they possess and WHERE they got it from you can figure out a lot of what will go where), then you sometimes want to see certain dogs in certain positions for certain things to continue.
There's a lot to it.
 

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