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Against my better judgement, I'm continuing the "Artica" thread that swayed off topic and got shut down. I had a no-show this afternoon and I am bored, I so I'm starting up where the "Artica" thread left off...

lmlloyd said:
Ah yes, the troll card.

Oh look, I don't like what he is saying, he must be a troll. I'm amazed it has taken this long for someone to decide that is the best way to deal with a dissenting opinion.
It has nothing to do with whether we agree or not. In fact, I actually agree with you on some points. But you present your argument in a style and tone that is condescending, negative, and deliberately inflammatory. As you may remember from your high school debating team, this type of argument is often effective in getting people angry, but it is not highly regarded as a cogent, logical, or persuasive argument, and will not win you points.

I think your point was "German Shepherds should be outcrossed". You're not the first person to think that, talk about it, or even do it, so your idea is not unique, and your argument has already been presented in many ways. If you want to have a constructive, elucidating discussion rather than make jeering snipes about how stupid and closed-minded everybody else is (and yes, that is what trolls do), you might want to alter your approach.

So I'll ask: What breed do you think we ought to outcross to?
 

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Isn't outcrossing just when you breed a GSD to another GSD where there is no line breeding within so many generations.
 

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For as relatively few Saint Bernards, overall population, I remember two incidents where Saints have killed small children. I do not think Saint Bernards would be the best candidate to improve temperament in GSDs, who for there much larger numbers, have a relatively few number of fatalities when you look at it with respect to population.

Maybe crossing GSDs to English Setters. But then, you would probably get are really stupid, docile, funny looking dog.
 

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What would be the point? To get away from what the German Shepherd is even more?

Would this strictly be for the pet market?
 

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And if we outcross to another breed to fix, say, temperament, what other probems are we going to cause?

The breed is already splintered enough as it is, and unless you are careful about what you are breeding, the lines can be dangerous to cross.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
What would be the point? To get away from what the German Shepherd is even more?

Would this strictly be for the pet market?
You'd have to ask lmlloyd. He/she is the one who is lamenting about the state of the GSD and blaming the small gene pool (amongst other things).

As to St. Bernard, I believe that mixing GSDs and Mastiff-type dogs has been done, I can't remember what the breeder named her mix, but it was basically a mix of GSD, Malamute, and Mastiff. The breeder wanted to sort of mellow out the GSD drives and make more of a laid-back temperament. A better "family" temperament. I do not know whether the experiment was successful. For the sake of discussion I will leave my opinion out of it for now.

If the GSD were truly in a position that it needed to be crossed with another breed in order to survive, I would first look to the landrace herding dogs in Germany, the types that went into the making of the GSD in the first place. Although, some years ago I talked to an old Geman breeder who said this had been tried, and that there was "nothing to gain" from such crosses.

In some European countries, GSDs are routinely crossed with Malinois and Dutch Shepherd to make police and sport dogs. Personally, I would not want to see the GSD go this route. A Malinois is a Malinois and a GSD is (and should be) something different; GSD already have nerve issues and the addition of a high-drive, low-threshold breed would be counterproductive IMO.

Then again, I'm not a breeder because I wouldn't want to make these kinds of decisions. :)
 

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For as relatively few Saint Bernards, overall population, I remember two incidents where Saints have killed small children. I do not think Saint Bernards would be the best candidate to improve temperament in GSDs, who for there much larger numbers, have a relatively few number of fatalities when you look at it with respect to population.

Maybe crossing GSDs to English Setters. But then, you would probably get are really stupid, docile, funny looking dog.
:laugh: well I don't know, I'm not a breader. I was just thinkng they were big and loyal. I hadn't heard of any with bad temperments. I would have suggested Akita but I know that some of them have bad temperments too.
 

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Nope. No outcrossing... that is just going to open up a whole other can of worms.

If you want crosses, there are already breeders with Mal/GSD mixes. That's the only mix I would get and even those can be tricky.
 

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:laugh: well I don't know, I'm not a breader. I was just thinkng they were big and loyal. I hadn't heard of any with bad temperments. I would have suggested Akita but I know that some of them have bad temperments too.
Is beethoven still available for stud? He was a pretty cool st bernard. :D
 

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Its done every day in back yards, vacant lots, and trash dumps across the USA. And we see tens of thousands of them in animal control holding pens and gassing chambers from coast to coast.
I'd say that's a heck of a breeding program, and look what it's gotten us. I think it's a safe bet that there has probably already been almost every GSD mix possible at one point or another, and although hybrid vigor will get you a 'healthier' dog in the short run you sacrifice any semblance of control over what you get the moment you abandon your known lineage.
 

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Hybrid vigor is a myth last I heard. If you breed a GSD with a questionable hip history with a Lab or Golden with a questionable hip history, you are going to get a mess of puppies with as bad of a risk of hip problems as if you bred those dogs within their breeds.
 

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Hasn't that been tried? Shilohs, Shepalutes, etc?
2 of the stupidest, most aggressive dogs I've ever known were my sisters Saint Bernards, and they were not related, just horrible temperaments and dumber than a box of rocks.
 

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I personally would rather just see superior dogs of all the different lines being bred into each other than going out to another breed, for one , NO BREED is perfect. I love the German Shepherd, I don't want Husky or Malinois in it, for that matter I rather have a mutt of my choice, or just stick to my little rotten terriers. I personally love my German Shepherds.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I might go so far as to say Labrador. Every GSD/Lab mix I've ever met was a good dog. High energy, yes--but overall stable, honest temperaments. My first dog was believed to be a GSD/Lab cross, and she was awesome.

But let me be clear--I don't think the answer to the GSD's problems is outcrossing. Hip problems are prevalent in almost every large breed (save for the sighthounds). Allergies are prevalent accross the board in pure and mixed breeds. Maybe the incidence of Pannus would be reduced, but then again, with outcrossing you never know what problems you might be introducing.

I don't think the GSD gene pool is dangerously small, but the backmassing that is often seen in pedigrees is concerning. I think that if a line needs new blood, they ought to go to another GSD line. Very carefully and with due diligence, of course.
 

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What bothered me was that his whole point was that he believed that the GSD gene pool was too small in order for any breeders to seriously think they were improving the breed or could consistently produce good stock, and that all the hype behind accomplishments and titles was just more or less a way for breeders to pretend that a problem did not exist (in a nutshell).

IMO, he was basing all of this off of a couple genetics articles he read, one which started off stating that they didn't like German Shepherds, his own personal experience with a weak nerved dog, and a few people he'd spoken to who had chosen to purchase bad breeding stock. His mind was set that the entire breed was doomed and was probably better off being crossed with other breeds. My hope was that we could bring more knowledgeable breeders into the discussion to delve into the whole genetics debate about this breed, as he seem solidly closed-minded to any argument contrary to his beliefs.
 

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it's ridiculous to think that the GSD's gene pool is to small. My gosh, there is a whole world of GSD's out there to 'pick' from.

There is no need to outcross to another breed, I for one, want a GSD, not one mixed with a different breed.

It's pretty easy to find a GOOD GSD, all you have to do is find a good breeder which there are many:)
 

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it's ridiculous to think that the GSD's gene pool is to small. My gosh, there is a whole world of GSD's out there to 'pick' from.

There is no need to outcross to another breed, I for one, want a GSD, not one mixed with a different breed.

It's pretty easy to find a GOOD GSD, all you have to do is find a good breeder which there are many:)
I whole heartedly agree! :thumbup:
 
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