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Discussion Starter #1
I saw a picture of a liver GSD (his name is Kaiser.) It was on DeviantArt, but I'm pretty sure I saw his pictures on here too.


He has gorgeous pale yellowish eyes, very red fur, and a red nose. Are these typical traits for a liver GSD? I can't find pictures of them anywhere, really. Not good ones, anyway.

Are there any reputable liver GSD breeders around? If that's what they usually look like, I'll look around. I about fell over in my chair when I saw Kaiser's pictures.
 

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Originally Posted By: KonotashiI saw a picture of a liver GSD (his name is Kaiser.) It was on DeviantArt, but I'm pretty sure I saw his pictures on here too.


He has gorgeous pale yellowish eyes, very red fur, and a red nose. Are these typical traits for a liver GSD? I can't find pictures of them anywhere, really. Not good ones, anyway.

Are there any reputable liver GSD breeders around? If that's what they usually look like, I'll look around. I about fell over in my chair when I saw Kaiser's pictures.
Liver is not a desired coat color and anyone breeding just for the color is NOT a good breeder.

I prefer dark eyes (as the standard calls for) on my GSDs and have a really hard time with the yellow eyes. Just don't like them.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
So there's also no reputable long hair or white GSD breeders, since they're not desired in the show ring?
 

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Whites are a different matters but no, there are no REPUTABLE breeders that breed ONLY for long coats.

Or ONLY for deep red color in the coats.

Or ONLY for dogs that have longer tails.


A REPUTABLE breeder breeds for health, temperament and drives FIRST and foremost. IF they happen to have a long coat (like my boy Mauser) in their litter than they have one.

They don't plan a breeding JUST to get a long coat.
 

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I know of someone in my state that has liver, panda and "oversized" shepherds.
The liver, blues, pandas are interesting but the breed standard does not recognize this, so anyone breeding them wouldn't be considered responsible to the breed betterment.
Every now and then you may get a color pop up in a litter because of the genes, but to breed for this is a no-no
Someone I know down the road has a blue, brother and sister accidentally hooked up and the vet said it was best to let her whelp, luckily she only had 3 pups.
She said he is as dumb as a box of rocks...
 

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If you search around, you can sometimes find liver GSDs from a reputable breeder as the color can show up unexpectedly in a litter of "normal" colored dogs.

As far as a breeder who actually breeds liver GSDs... Well, if you really want to find one there are a few breeders pf non-standard colors who do OFA and other health testing with their dogs and work/title their dogs. Most people would not call them reputable but at least the dogs are being tested and titled.
 

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See, when you breed based on colors (like someone) you end up with dogs that are described using words like "a very soft girl".

GSDs should NEVER be 'soft'.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
What does it mean when someone says "very soft?"
 

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I would say it is temperament, not the feel of the dogs coat.
And I agree, GSD's should not be soft!!
 

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Originally Posted By: KonotashiWhat does it mean when someone says "very soft?"
I was referring to the link in the post above. They have a dog for sale that they describe as "very soft" and needs someone easygoing to being her 'out of her shell'.

That is NOT acceptable GSD temperament.
 

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Also, if a breeder is breeding specifically for a recessive color then they are limiting the gene pool they can pick from to breed.

By limiting a gene pool you increase the likelihood of the BAD genes to appear in the offspring.

Cheetahs are a good example of what happens when you limit your gene pool. Because of the decline of the wild population of Cheetahs there are very few breeding Cheetahs left:

Quote:The cheetah originated about 4 million years ago, long before other big cats and was once common throughout Europe, North America, Asia and Africa. They disappeared about 10,000 years ago from North America when major climatic changes took place. Fossil evidence has been found in what is now Texas, Nevada and Wyoming. The cheetah also disappeared from Europe and most of those in Asia and Africa also vanished. The present populations are derived from inbreeding by those very few surviving and closely related animals. This has led to the present state cheetah genetics: every one is nearly identical.
http://www.honoluluzoo.org/cheetah.htm
 

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I heard of a Liver coming out in an incestual breeding as well, (grandparent/grandchild). It must be one of those latent, lazy genes that only shows up if two carriers breed. That can be disasterous as the gene could be one of a disease or a deformity. I am not a fan of linebreeding, although I know most breeders do it. It is just another name for inbreeding and can cause all the problems that inbreeding does. That's why you hear that mutts, in general, are healthier dogs than purebreds.
 

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Theres a pretty large difference between line breeding and inbreeding actually. Inbreeding pertains to breeding animals that are closely related like mother/son, father/daughter, and full sib/full sib. Line breeding involves breeding two animals from related lines that have been bred out and then the resulting offspring one day bred back in like aunt/nephew, grandfather/grandaughter, and so on. When genetic testing is done beforehand you can determine and avoid recesive genes being matched up resulting in defects, and encourage the traits you value in a line.

GSD's and any other purebred out there have been inbred, linebred, and inbred again to get the results that have created distinct and healthy line when done responcibly. I would purposely breed for an animal not considered standard, but I like the livers and blues myself. Why is it though white is not standard it is accepted?
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Originally Posted By: Daniellec Why is it though white is not standard it is accepted?
I've been wondeirng this myself....

But whites are very controversial. Livers and blues seem to just be slammed whenever they're brought up though.
 

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Lauri said it very well, but I want to add my 2 cents as well.

Originally Posted By: Konotashi
He has gorgeous pale yellowish eyes, very red fur, and a red nose. Are these typical traits for a liver GSD? I can't find pictures of them anywhere, really. Not good ones, anyway.
I do not know about those being typical traits for liver colored German shepherds, as I have never met one, but combined, those are typical traits for a poorly bred German shepherd. Pale/yellow eyes, the liver color, and a red nose are all considered faults in the show ring.

Originally Posted By: KonotashiSo there's also no reputable long hair or white GSD breeders, since they're not desired in the show ring?
As already stated, white German shepherd dogs are a whole 'nother story, but to answer your question, there are plenty of reputable breeders who produce long coated GSDs, or GSDs with other undesirable traits in the show ring. However, those breeders usually will not sell those pups as "breeding quality" dogs, and often you will find that breeders will charge less for a long coated puppy.

As for breeders who breed specifically FOR a fault, most will say that none of those breeders would be considered reputable. There is a difference between breeding two titled stock (or plush) coat GSDs that carry the long coat gene and getting long coat puppies and saying "well, he's a liver long coat and she's a liver long coat, and gosh darn it, they're awfully rare and pretty, so let's breed 'em!".

There is much more to the German shepherd dog than just color. A shy, fearful, "soft" German shepherd is not a good representation of the breed, and in my opinion, neither is a GSD that does not look like a GSD should. While there's nothing wrong with having a color preference (I love the darker colored dogs myself), a breeder intentionally and specifically breeding for faults is not my cup of tea. If you have your heart set on a liver, I suggest you look into reputable breeders who may have had occasional liver colored dogs pop up in their litters, and talk to them, or, of course, find one from a shelter or rescue.
 

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I always thought responsible line breeding is more having a common great grand parent. Breeding an aunt/nephew or grandfather back to his granddaughter is inbreeding.

Livers and blues aren't in the standard becuase that's what Capt. Max wanted. There's a quote about relegating them to the dung heap.

Whites are a different story, that's a masking gene, not a recessive gene like blues/livers. Yes they do come up once in a while in a responsible breeding. Then it's the responsible breeders responsibility (in the name of bettering the breed) to be sure they are sneutered. My money is on there's more of them now becuase they aren't being culled in shame by responsible breeders.

Breeding blues/livers like SOMEONE is doing, that's just pandering to the designer dog fad and the silly human need to have some rare looking dog.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
How could I go about finding a breeder who has had livers pop up occasionally in their litters? I'm not absolutely set on a liver, but if I coud find one that's not a bad example as shown above, I'd get one.
 

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Originally Posted By: Konotashi
Originally Posted By: Daniellec Why is it though white is not standard it is accepted?
I've been wondeirng this myself....

But whites are very controversial. Livers and blues seem to just be slammed whenever they're brought up though.
Whites are not accepted in the AKC show ring. And neither are they necessarily accepted by GSD lovers. I personally have no issue with white German shepherds, just as I have no issue with long coats. I know of several breeders who train and show, and/or title their white German shepherds and breed them because they are proven to be good examples of the breed.

No where in this thread do I see blues and livers "being slammed". It is the backyard breeders that are being frowned upon. Show me a breeder with blues and livers as their breeding stock, and give me evidence that the breeder titles and works with their dogs and proves their dogs to be ideal examples of the GSD breed, and I won't have much of an issue with them, either.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
If a dog is automatically disqualified for being white though, how is it a good example of the breed, period? Whereas livers and blues are just major faults?

I'm not trying to argue or anything, I'm just trying to understand.
 

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there is a push to make the White German Shepherd a separate breed. The people behind that are being responsible, setting their own standard and following it. They also title, health test, etc etc
 
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