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Discussion Starter #1
How much regulation is too much?
how much is expected?

Here are her requirements:

1. We have the right to take the puppy back at any time if he is being neglected
2. annual written updates, change of address and phone updates
3. provide puppy with high quality foods only. Suggested foods include, but are not limited to: Fromm, Taste of the Wild, Honest Kitchen, Wellness, Solid Gold, any frozen compete raw food, Natural Balance, Blue Buffalo, Halo. Foods to stay away from are: IAMS, Pedigree, any Purina Product, any generic foods, Science Diet, Eukanuba, or any other foods that contain corn meals, or ethoxyquin, or BHA, BHT. The use of a holistic veterinarian is highly recommended.
4.this GSD pup to be adopted into the family and treated as a part of the family. The dog will sleep, at night, in the house with the family. Buyer agrees to keep this German Shepherd in a secured fully fenced yard, and never “tied out” on a chain or other tether, and never allow the German Shepherd to roam free from the owners property. This German Shepherd shall NEVER be allowed to ride un-tethered in the back of an open pickup truck.
5.Buyer agrees to seek out a qualified trainer
6.This puppy will be neutered or spayed, but not before 1 year of age
7.This puppy will be vaccinated following the guidelines set forth by Dr. Jean Dodds

most of this stuff I agree with with the exception of:

neutering: what if I want to do dog sports? or I don't feel that it is in the best interest of the health of the dog?

vaccinations: shouldn't that be between me and my vet? depending on factors such as my area?

training: I have always trained my own dogs and they all turned out fine.

I feel like if its my dog, these are things I should have the right to decide, I like knowing the suggestions of others, but I don't want a contract telling me I have to do it there way.
 

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I think it all comes down to your comfort level with the breeder. My new pup has a pretty extensive contract. But there was nothing in it that was going to be different from how I would raise the pup. At first I was taken aback as well, not thinking the breeder had any right to tell me how to care for my dog. But when it came down to it, I was going to be following everything the contract said anyway.

Personally I don't like the stipulations on brands of food, vx guidelines and forced neutering.

But that's me. And I would be knowingly entering into a contract I had no intention of honoring.


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I'm in the same boat as gsdsar where my contract was lengthy but I planned on doing most the things anyway.
My breeder did not force spay neuter and vax requirements, but she did insist that no food with corn as a main ingredient would be fed, but I completely agree with that.
 

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I've never really had a problem with any contract Ive ever gotten.

The only thing I can say is this, if you don't like certain stipulations you should bring it up with the breeder, if they are unbending in the stipulations set forth, and you are uncomfortable abiding by them, I would go elsewhere.

Why? Because one thing I see, just say, you do not want to spay/neuter and you don't, won't that be breaking the contract, and under number 1. wouldn't that be grounds for the breeder to come in and take repossession of the dog?

I think the stipulations posted, are from the breeder wanting certain things obviously from you, as an owner, if you sign, and don't abide by the stipulations, I would think this is breaking the contract and grounds for repo-ing the dog. Not sure how enforceable it would be, but I guess I would ask a lawyer that.

The spay/neuter is obviously because they do not want you breeding the dog, so you may be getting a limited registration (nothing wrong with that).

In the end, if you don't intend to abide by the contract, don't sign it, discuss your concerns with the breeder and go from there.
 

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Most of the stipulations are pretty much standard - a basic contract has floated around for years and most people I know use the same contract with a some to many adjustments.

The neuter and spay requirements vary - the food is basically suggestions for good quality food. Most of the rest is to ensure that the puppy is cared for and how the breeder expects you to care for him. If you don't agree with it [generalization - not you specifically], then perhaps the breeder is not a good match.

Lee
 

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I like the contract, the neutering part isn't saying (from my understanding of it) is that you can neuter, but not before the age of 1yrs old (minimum age, which is correct from my research into s/n).

The food one is kinda iffy, in the case of if your pet ever gets sick and you *need* to use a certain diet until the issues clear, which most brands like Purina have a Veterinarian diet for different issues.
 

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I would never sign such a contract as a buyer. Personally, I think that breeders need to come to grips with the fact that after they sell their puppy it no longer belongs to them.

I put together a binder for my pups and it discusses training, nutrition, spay/neuter, socialization, vaccination etc. I TALK to the people when they buy the puppy and try to impress on them that take my vaccine record with them to their vet and not to let them discount them and start the series over again. And we discuss almost everything on your list. But I don't insist on anything.

If I do not trust a buyer to do the right thing for their dog, I don't sell them the dog. I do not count on a contract to force people to do something a specific way, and I do not suggest that I might swoop down on them and snag the dog back. For one thing my definition of neglect might be not taking the puppy to group training classes. That means I have the right to take the puppy back and resell it to someone else? Give me a break.

I have a contract. It is really one sided. It says what I will do in this event or that event. But it really does not require the new owner to do anything. It has a line in it about vet costs being the responsibility of the new owner from the date of purchase.

I have toyed with the idea of right of first refusal. I haven't added it yet. My contract says that I will take the dog back if the owner needs to rehome the dog for any reason. But if the new owner wants to sell the dog or give the dog to someone else, that is really up to them.

There are so many things that we could try and keep our fingers on. But ultimately, the dog belongs to the new owners. They will have to feed the dog, and care for the dog, train the dog, be responsible for the dog's actions, and grieve when the dog dies. There is no way I can monitor every puppy I have sold to ensure it is never chained, and being fed an appropriate kibble. Why would I make someone sign a contract I could not possibly enforce?
 

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I would never sign a contract like that. You're purchasing the pup not borrowing it! My new pup came with a lengthy contract. However, it deals primarily with steps needed to maintain warranty and not stipulations and/or requirements of ownership. I have problem
being told what to feed the dog I bought. I don't have a problem being told that feeding
certain foods will void the warranty.
 

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How much is too much depends on you and your feelings towards the breeder. The one you listed as an example is pretty strict in controlling food and vaccinations, spay and neuter, in my opinion, but as others have said, if that is what they were going to do anyways (feeding certain brands, following a certain vax protocol, etc . . . ) then no big deal.

What is more important than what is on the contract is the relationship you have with the breeder. For example, my breeder only sells on limited registration, and her contract stipulates that the dogs will be kept on appropriate flea, tick and heartworm preventatives.

But I needed full registration in order to be able to register an AKC pup with the CKC, and due to my geographic location, we do not have fleas, ticks, or heartworm here. All I had to do was email and ask for those requirements to be changed - which was no problem.

If you feel that the breeder is dictating to you, and that you are left without recourse if you disagree with an item on the contract, then I would look elsewhere. Both parties need to be happy: The breeder needs to feel comfortable with the buyer, and the buyer needs to feel comfortable with their choice of breeder. When getting a pup, you are not only getting a dog, but also starting a relationship with the breeder.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Thanks for the reply, I am glad to know I'm not the only one who thinks it is a little too much to promise for a legal agreement, but how would I go about discussing it with the breeder? she seems really nice, and knowledgeable, and the dogs are beautiful, I don't want this to be a deal breaker.
 

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Just come right out and say it, "I'm not comfortable with xxx on the contract":)
 

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Here is a related question. Let's say a breeder believes that a client has not lived up to one of the stipulations of the contract and wishes to "take back" the puppy/dog. What exactly does that mean? I am assuming that they are going to take you to court for breach of contract. No breeder is going to try to "snatch" if from you or forcibly take it back.
 

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To tell you the truth...if this is a really good breeder, you might not have a leg to stand on. Good breeders usually have liens out the door for their pups and if you don't want the puppy, there's 10 people behind you that would jump at the chance to give that dog a home.

The contract is a bit much for me...I'm very much with selzer on the fact that I've paid my money and if you've sold me a dog you should trust me enough to treat that dog right. At the end of the day though...many of the things in that contract aren't enforceable:

How will they know if you ever tie your dog out?

How will they know what food you feed?

How will they know when you speuter the dog?

All things that you'd have to provide them if they asked, and if you don't, nothing is going to happen. Are they going to take you to court if you don't give them a yearly update on the dog? Good luck with that one...
 

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Just say, (just an example) "Hey, I always vaccinate my animals against Lyme and Bordetella as a just in case and I'd like to do the same for Fido. Is that okay?"

We had a similar issue when the breeder wanted us to feed a certain type of food for the first six months. We couldn't find this food anywhere near us and ordering it online had a 30lb bag of food costing us about 100$. I told her that I couldn't find the food and would like to use a puppy food we could actually find. She was fine with it and we moved on.
 

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Here is a related question. Let's say a breeder believes that a client has not lived up to one of the stipulations of the contract and wishes to "take back" the puppy/dog. What exactly does that mean? I am assuming that they are going to take you to court for breach of contract. No breeder is going to try to "snatch" if from you or forcibly take it back.
That's the biggest issue with these "small" contracts. They're pretty much unenforceable. We all want to believe that we can enforce any contract we write through the courts, but the truth is, the courts don't like to deal with this type of stuff. And right...do you really think a judge is going to rule that a dog is being neglected because its eating Purina? Do you think a judge is even going to take the case if the charge is "feeding crap food to dog."

Really the only thing I'd need to see added to that contract is what the definition of "neglected" is. Its way too subjective of a word to allow to sit in a contract without more explanation.
 

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Dont know what breeder your looking at but most of the good working line breeders sell you the dog outright no BS. They may ask for the right of first refusal or sell on limited reg prior to titles but its usually no more ownerus then that. Your paying hard earned money for a dog, anyways judging by the contract this is clearly a pet or show breeder.
 

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I am thinking more an inexperienced breeder. With a little more experience you realize that you do not own the dogs once the money changes hands, and while you can care about them until they die, you really cannot go there and raise them for their new owners.
 

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How much regulation is too much?
how much is expected?

Here are her requirements:

1. We have the right to take the puppy back at any time if he is being neglected
2. annual written updates, change of address and phone updates
3. provide puppy with high quality foods only. Suggested foods include, but are not limited to: Fromm, Taste of the Wild, Honest Kitchen, Wellness, Solid Gold, any frozen compete raw food, Natural Balance, Blue Buffalo, Halo. Foods to stay away from are: IAMS, Pedigree, any Purina Product, any generic foods, Science Diet, Eukanuba, or any other foods that contain corn meals, or ethoxyquin, or BHA, BHT. The use of a holistic veterinarian is highly recommended.
4.this GSD pup to be adopted into the family and treated as a part of the family. The dog will sleep, at night, in the house with the family. Buyer agrees to keep this German Shepherd in a secured fully fenced yard, and never “tied out” on a chain or other tether, and never allow the German Shepherd to roam free from the owners property. This German Shepherd shall NEVER be allowed to ride un-tethered in the back of an open pickup truck.
5.Buyer agrees to seek out a qualified trainer
6.This puppy will be neutered or spayed, but not before 1 year of age
7.This puppy will be vaccinated following the guidelines set forth by Dr. Jean Dodds

most of this stuff I agree with with the exception of:

neutering: what if I want to do dog sports? or I don't feel that it is in the best interest of the health of the dog?

vaccinations: shouldn't that be between me and my vet? depending on factors such as my area?

training: I have always trained my own dogs and they all turned out fine.

I feel like if its my dog, these are things I should have the right to decide, I like knowing the suggestions of others, but I don't want a contract telling me I have to do it there way.
A contract like this would make me feel as if this puppy wasn't owned by me. I think it is over the top (for me), especially the annual updates. You should be able to make your own decisions.
 

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Contracts like that are waaay to subjective (what exactly is "neglected?!" and have too many loopholes for the breeder I think. I'm assuming that you have some kind of guarantee with that one as well...what is YOUR recourse if you don't feed Wellness and have to feed Science Diet Prescription foods for awhile? Or RAW?

I agree with others that a breeder needs confidence in the preson they are selling to. If the person isn't the type to update occasionally and those updates are imperitive, then they should move on to another buyer.
 

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IF this is a breeder you otherwise like I'd discuss your concerns with her. It appears she just wants good homes for her pups. Most of her requirements are things good owners usually do. It's quite possible she's willing to be flexible for good reason, much like Castlemaid's breeder was. Discussions with a breeder can help you get a feel for how well you & the breeder can work together, how flexible the breeder is (or isn't), how knowledgeable & experienced she is.
 
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