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I have nothing against Larry, but it looks like he got schooled lol

And it sounds like he'll get schooled again when he attends Ivan's course.

@ 1:24:00

"It's a simple question ... I will answer it to you, I will answer. It did not prepare him whatsoever. It really did not. That's the answer. And it's an okay answer. It's just what it is. It's not like I'm going to take you somewhere else, it's just that's the answer " -Ivan Balabanov
 

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The conversation did have some merits, but I found it very tedious. Ivan acted more like a prosecuting attorney than a fellow dog trainer. Larry is not as sophisticated in his responses perhaps, but I think they both strived a little too much to be diplomatic.

Ivan's contention that Larry's low level stim training does not prepare a dog for an aversive later is very true, but only if you take his description as complete. I'm sure along the training path there would be ample opportunities to introduce slightly more aversive corrections, without causing the dog much in the way of confusion...just didn't get articulated.

I think people are just so fearful of talking about e-collar use. Sadly, because they've come a long way, and training with them has evolved a great deal as well.

And just to be clear, I have used them, but not for 30 yrs...
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
One of the questions asked to Larry was how does he know the dog understands the stim and is ready to move on? The dog already knows the command and responds correctly without the stim. I won’t claim to speak for Larry but my answer here is you will know the dog understands because he will respond in a situation he normally wouldn’t without the stim. Larry starts in a 0 distraction environment. I believe it is better to start the work in a low distraction environment. Here is a good example of the kind of answer Ivan is looking for. In his circle tracking, he says you can open the circle and start moving to normal tracks when the dog completes a pass around the circle in the same direction eating basically all of the food.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
One thing being said here I disagree with is the low level stim being called neutral. It is never neutral, it is always an adversive. With low level stim, you’re looking at negative punishment. There is a sensation there the dog doesn’t like and when he executes the command it goes away. One of the reasons this is done at low levels in my opinion is you want the dog to clear headed and able to think and reason. A high level tends to stop the dog from thinking.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Another question, why is it so specific in finding the working level, which is called the neutral level in the video, but not in the correction level, which is called the adversive level in the video? I think the answer here is there is a very specific range you want to be in for the working level. Too low won’t creat the desired effect and too low can cause the dog to start to shut down. The adversive level, when used a single quick tap, is much less likely to shut a dog down. This one doesn’t need to be as precise.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I have nothing against Larry, but it looks like he got schooled lol

And it sounds like he'll get schooled again when he attends Ivan's course.

@ 1:24:00

"It's a simple question ... I will answer it to you, I will answer. It did not prepare him whatsoever. It really did not. That's the answer. And it's an okay answer. It's just what it is. It's not like I'm going to take you somewhere else, it's just that's the answer " -Ivan Balabanov
The simple answer here is it’s never neutral. Low stim training is using an adversive. It’s always applying pressure to the dog. When you raise that level later the dog understands how to turn it off, so you get the right answer. There is a difference between using the low stim and raising the pressure you’re using and using the e collar for a correction. The correction is instant, a snap in time. The basis of the conversation being that the low stim starts off as neutral isn’t something I believe.
 

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I’d say if it’s always and aversive, which I agree with, low level stim is not negative punishment, but positive punishment.


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The more I listen to Ivan’s opinion of e collars, the more I agree.


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The conversation did have some merits, but I found it very tedious. Ivan acted more like a prosecuting attorney than a fellow dog trainer. Larry is not as sophisticated in his responses perhaps, but I think they both strived a little too much to be diplomatic.

Ivan's contention that Larry's low level stim training does not prepare a dog for an aversive later is very true, but only if you take his description as complete. I'm sure along the training path there would be ample opportunities to introduce slightly more aversive corrections, without causing the dog much in the way of confusion...just didn't get articulated.

I think people are just so fearful of talking about e-collar use. Sadly, because they've come a long way, and training with them has evolved a great deal as well.

And just to be clear, I have used them, but not for 30 yrs...
I've only made it twenty minutes in so far. But I disagree that lower level stim training does not prepare a dog for correction at a higher level. At least that has not been my experience. When I have done it I try to match the level of stim to the situation so that it is relevant to the dog. If we were training in the yard on a 10 but now we are in the woods and there's wildlife the dog isn't going to perceive a 10 anymore, probably. Maybe now they perceive a 30 similarly to how they perceived the 10. And I will make sure they can still respond correctly and show me they know how to turn it off BEFORE they are let off a long line, so I don't have to go to shock and awe level and hope for the best.

I base this opinion especially on the fact that I E Collar trained my white dog and when I corrected him off wildlife he took it in a very mature way and he is a very soft dog! He is sensitive, handler soft. And by the time he got a real correction in a real life scenario with wildlife his response was very matter of fact. "Oh, ok. Got it." I can't imagine he would have been so sensible if he had not been prepared...

But maybe I will think something different once I hear the rest of the conversation.
 

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I’d say if it’s always and aversive, which I agree with, low level stim is not negative punishment, but positive punishment.


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It can be either: if it is added prior to the command and taken away when the dog complies. The removal of unpleasant sensation is "negative reinforcement"

Low level stim can be added as positive punishment too but what make the difference is whether it is being added or taken away
 

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It can be either: if it is added prior to the command and taken away when the dog complies. The removal of unpleasant sensation is "negative reinforcement"

Low level stim can be added as positive punishment too but what make the difference is whether it is being added or taken away
Yes but negative reinforcement and negative punishment are not the same.


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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Yes but negative reinforcement and negative punishment are not the same.


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My viewpoint is this. Positive is adding to the environment. Negative is taking away. A reinforcement is something the dog wants. A punishment is something the dog wants to avoid. The stim is taken away when the dog complies. That to me is negative punishment.
 

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My viewpoint is this. Positive is adding to the environment. Negative is taking away. A reinforcement is something the dog wants. A punishment is something the dog wants to avoid. The stim is taken away when the dog complies. That to me is negative punishment.
Dave Kroyer has good videos on this. How dogs learn is also a good book to check out related to operant conditioning. That, in fact, is negative reinforcement, not negative punishment. Negative punishment is withholding reward in simple terms. Theres 4 chambers of operant conditioning. There’s more to it but I’m by no means the expert on operant conditioning. Not why I commented just my 2 cents.


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My viewpoint is this. Positive is adding to the environment. Negative is taking away. A reinforcement is something the dog wants. A punishment is something the dog wants to avoid. The stim is taken away when the dog complies. That to me is negative punishment.
no that is not what negative punishment is. I just googled looking for a list and skimmed this but it looks right

 

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Yes but negative reinforcement and negative punishment are not the same.


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I know. I don’t believe E Collar can be used as negative punishment. That is removing something desirable as a consequence of action.

negative reinforcement, removing something ongoing and aversive....such as your alarm clock beeping until you turn it off.

positive punishment, positive meaning adding something. E collar can absolutely be this at low or high levels depending on the dog
 

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Ok at 44 or so Ivan hits on something that also occured to me listening to Larry's description. Larry says he wants the dog to start the recall when it feels the stim before it hears the command, and then he knows it understands.

But then he says he also uses stim to teach the dog to send away from the owner to a place command. What he said above would have worked for me and been fine IF he wasn't also going to use the same stim to send the dog off.

Because stim CAN only mean come to me...that's all I've used it to teach my current dog. He understands it in no other way except maybe "go no further"...

So Ivan has a good point there
 

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As it continues Larry says that he is using the recall almost exclusively to gauge how well the dog understands the stim and I think that's a hole in his theory as well...IF he is using the e collar to also teach send away (send to place) and stay in place (I don't think this has been covered yet) Was it Tri-Tronics that had the "think three" method where the E Collar was taught to mean come to me, go away from me, and stay where you are. 3 different applications.

Those are very different things to a dog...and if the E Collar is being used in all 3 ways then my view is that the dog should be showing proficiency at each of these 3 as a gauge, not just the recall.

Again I have no problem with using the E Collar only to mean come to me without ever teaching the other two... but if you are going to do the others which Larry says he does, then each should be a standalone thing to understand. I feel like that's what Ivan is picking at and I agree.

Larry says at 58 or so that "not having to use the leash" is a good indicator that the dog understands the e collar and is ready to progress. Larry sounds like he is more intuitive and has less of a super clear measurable criteria which can be ok but it is hard to explain and I think if he could seize on the fact that the dog having leash and e collar be interchangeable is a valuable indicator. You can give physical guidance, physical follow through with the low level e collar similar to guiding with a leash. Where they're at at 57 min or so I would have said that if the dog was asked to place under higher distraction and started to fail...if the E Collar could be used instead of the leash to put the dog back on track, then the dog truly understands. And then the dog is maybe ready to remove leash because it can be physically helped with the collar instead.
 

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1:13 Ivan says you are going out of your way to teach the dog that the collar is neither pleasant nor unpleasant. He asks how does that prepare him for the collar to now be aversive. Larry's answer is weak.

In my opinion, It prepares him because when the stim is "gentle" enough for him to just feel it associated with his commands and responses, he has learned that it turns off when he responds. Now when it becomes less pleasant, he has a framework for knowing that responding will be the end of the stim.

And the low level stim can be included with gentle leash pressure to guide a dog back to place for instance...then when the dial turns up a bit he has some knowledge of..."oh, when I get back on the place board the stim stops"

If it is very aversive to begin with, the dog will not be able to pay attention to when it turns on and off with as much clarity because he will be stressed out and unable to think clearly and calmly about it. I wish larry had explained this better.

Another reason that "neutral" phase is important is that it gives you a baseline. This number the dog feels but it isn't overly unpleasant. So if I dial up slightly from there I will find the number which the dog perceives as sufficiently unpleasant to want to make it stop without being so unpleasant that it causes negative side effects.

I've stated dogs who initially perceive a 4 on a Dogtra and then had a working level of 8. Or others who initially perceive a 12 and work between 15-18. If I just went straight to 15 on the first dog it would have negative consequences. But knowing that dog started at a 4, it will probably be lower over all, and it's important information to have so I don't over do it.

The other reason it matters is that as you add in distractions you fiddle with the numbers and see how much of a change that dog has in what it perceives of the collar compared to what's going on. That's how you gauge what numbers to use depending on what's going on.

And back to my example of my dog above...I had worked with him in gradually increasing levels of stim and distractions so I made an educated guess that 25 would be a good number to get him off a hot deer trail and I was correct. That's when I got the "oh ok, got it." Response from him. If I had not worked up thru those levels with care I might have arbitrarily though oh hot deer trail, that's a number 60. And my dog would have been SHOCKED literally and there would be much more chance of bad side effects because he got a correction more than twice what he needed to get the job done.
 
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