German Shepherds Forum banner

1 - 20 of 94 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,742 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Here is the story. A person imported a couple of CsV and went to one of my SAR workshops with the female because he thinks they are the ultimate SAR dog, but she didn't cut it, still I did my homework and found they are actually used in some countries, though more anecdotal than anything.

A couple of months ago the president of the team told me the guy had bred his dogs and wanted to donate a pup to the team, but he really didn't care about it. I jumped and said I wanted it. I'm very skeptical they can be really useful for SAR, though I wanted the pup for the learning experience of raising and training this kind of dog and neither my team nor the breeder really care if I on the long run it doesn't work and I keep him just as a pet (actually, he got registered at my name).

So far I can say Kavik is more wolfish than I expected. Yes, he is skittish and takes his time to adjust to new situations, but it goes beyond that and looks, all the ways he stands, he moves, he looks resembles more of a wolf than a dog pup. The first time I left it alone on my yard my neighbors called me on the phone to inform me there was a fox on my backyard, LOL. The day I picked him the breeder informed me that the parents were kenneled, because that same night they had escaped his property, killed a yearling foal and brought it by pieces to the pups. I can testify it's true because Kavik has been pooping horse hair until yesterday.

I plan on doing extensive socialization, but not this week yet. He needs his time to rest of the stress of being separated from his family, attending an IPO trial and travelling. I don't want induced hysteria either.

Here there are some pictures:







 

·
Registered
Joined
·
139 Posts
He's gorgeous!

I went to an AKC tracking class a while back and a lady there had a young male Vlcak pup - about 10 months old. He was well behaved and got along well with Rai who was about the same age at the time. I talked to her about him and said she had to socialize him A LOT to get him to the point he was at. I knew his half sister and she was really, really skittish. I'm not sure how he's been as he's matured, but he did really well in tracking.

Good luck with your puppy :) Keep us updated! They're a very interesting breed
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
238 Posts
He looks great! Do keep us updated!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,884 Posts
there are so many better ways to improve "dog" than mixing with wolf - even with generations distance . Then there are other things such as diet. Read an article recently which said the the dog is different because it lacks the ability to digest carbohydrates - Study: Ability to digest starch is critical difference between wolves and dogs.

Would anyone be excited or interested if the hybrid hinged on a coyote ? Yet coyote are much bolder , and much more adaptable than dogs .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,742 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Thankfully we have the Czechoslovakian experiment precisely to disprove it against those who keep doing mixes. I know it's not your point, but I've read that dog-coyote hybrids lose health and fertility after a few generations.

Most of my dog-friends have another dog besides their working dog: a Poodle, a maltesse, a Japanese Spitz, a Showline they got before knowing about the sport... I joke saying that I'm different, so if I get a dog only for his prettiness, I get a wolfdog.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
624 Posts
Thankfully we have the Czechoslovakian experiment precisely to disprove it against those who keep doing mixes. I know it's not your point, but I've read that dog-coyote hybrids lose health and fertility after a few generations.

Most of my dog-friends have another dog besides their working dog: a Poodle, a maltesse, a Japanese Spitz, a Showline they got before knowing about the sport... I joke saying that I'm different, so if I get a dog only for his prettiness, I get a wolfdog.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App
Its not a hybrid! Strictly speaking, you need a license to own a wolf or even a first generation dog-wolf cross but the Czech Vlcak is several generations removed from the original wolf ancestor so its considered a domestic dog. It does take more work to train it and bring out its working qualities. That's why its not for the first-time dog owner. I would have to add Kavik is not typical of the breed and the personality and temperament of these dogs as individuals can vary from the breed standard.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
279 Posts
I'm Czech living in USA for some years now. I do not have personal experience with vlcak, except what I saw around town. I just want to say it is not common knowledge in czech that vlcak is more wolf like than gsd. Most people view them as gsd, just maybe little harder to train.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,742 Posts
Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Norman, I said dog and coyotes were hybrids. Besides, you have zero experience with either Vlcaks nor working dogs so you cannot say what are good characteristics or no for it, as opposed to someone like Carmen, though I'm sure you have read a lot on wikipedia about working dogs too and are ready to write a book.

Lets face the truth, Vlcaks breeders are mostly show breeders and that by itself removes working characteristics faster than having or not wolf genes. I am pretty aware that these are dogs, but when I say more wolfish than what I expected I don't mean it from a genetic point of view, but in how he looks when he moves.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,742 Posts
Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Here there is the better resource of first hand experience of people who, like me, is on it for the learning experience. A series of articles about their observations training CsVs. I'm already in contact with them.

http://www.siamcrowndog.com/article.php
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,884 Posts
in the article about the ability of dogs being able to handle carbohydrates the researchers found that this Inability to do so lingers for a very long time after wolf genes have been introduced -- many generations.

the wolf is a specialist when it comes to food and territory and being away from human , needing vast expanses to range in.

Coyote thrives in urban wasteland, rural community , close proximity to people , eat , everything --- trash , and small game . Wild coyotes ‘kind of chilling’ by Wrigley Field - Salon.com
comfortable with the lights , the sounds, waiting patiently to go through the bleachers looking for hot-dogs, pizza crusts !

this is such a good book to read

Eastern Coyote: Gerry Parker: 9781551091112: Amazon.com: Books

this is a good read The Daily Coyote: Story of Love, Survival, and Trust In the Wilds of Wyoming by Shreve Stockton - Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists

this is a good read [ame]http://www.amazon.ca/Part-Wild-Journey-Creature-Between/dp/1451634811[/ame]

so far this Kavik IS typical of this breed so many comments about skittishness - (The day I picked him the breeder informed me that the parents were kenneled, because that same night they had escaped his property, killed a yearling foal and brought it by pieces to the pups. I can testify it's true because Kavik has been pooping horse hair until yesterday.)

Kavik , by the way, I am told means Bear.

by the way I love the name Kavik , had one of my own K Carmspack Kavik CD TD TDX UTD --- urban tracking dog.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
624 Posts
Norman, I said dog and coyotes were hybrids. Besides, you have zero experience with either Vlcaks nor working dogs so you cannot say what are good characteristics or no for it, as opposed to someone like Carmen, though I'm sure you have read a lot on wikipedia about working dogs too and are ready to write a book.

Lets face the truth, Vlcaks breeders are mostly show breeders and that by itself removes working characteristics faster than having or not wolf genes. I am pretty aware that these are dogs, but when I say more wolfish than what I expected I don't mean it from a genetic point of view, but in how he looks when he moves.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App
I have experience with GSD. In regards to your statement about the Vlcak, this dog was developed by the Czech army/border guard service to create a more suitable dog for working than the GSD then in service with the Czech army and border guard service. The CSV became the Czech national breed only in 1982.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
624 Posts
Never understand the purpose of dogs like this besides their looks maybe?
The Czechs wanted to develop a Super-GSD suitable for working purposes. That is why the Carpathian wolf was selected to develop a new breed of dog. It was mated with Czech GSDs to that end. Incidentally, the early SV breed register shows four wolf crosses listed in the foundation stock of the GSD - which was never really pursued. Its more than about looks - its about a dog that should conform to Max Stephanitz's belief a dog should be bred for working. The Czechs' experiments were evidently quite successful!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,742 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
The Czechs wanted to develop a Super-GSD suitable for working purposes. That is why the Carpathian wolf was selected to develop a new breed of dog. It was mated with Czech GSDs to that end. Incidentally, the early SV breed register shows four wolf crosses listed in the foundation stock of the GSD - which was never really pursued. Its more than about looks - its about a dog that should conform to Max Stephanitz's belief a dog should be bred for working. The Czechs' experiments were evidently quite successful!
It was not. They ended the experiment and later on show breeders took what has been done and registered the breed with the FCI, but the Czechoslovakians stopped to use these dogs for working purposes and neither, Czech nor Slovaks, use them today. I do not know of any army in the world that uses them today, please prove me wrong.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,690 Posts
Wow, stunning pup! Definitely keep us updated, I'd love to hear about how he does training! :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,742 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Kavik means wolverine in Inuit. There is a book called "Kavik, the wolfdog" that I read as a kid, so the name inmediately jumped to my mind.

Carmen, I saw the book when you posted it on the other thread. I'd love to read it, but I broke my Kindle. I hope the next time my brother goes to USA he brings me another one, because there they are way cheaper.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
624 Posts
Here there is the better resource of first hand experience of people who, like me, is on it for the learning experience. A series of articles about their observations training CsVs. I'm already in contact with them.

Siam Crown Kennel, Thailand - K9 Working Dogs - Malinois, Dutch Shepherds, Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs
Its a good breed for detection/tracking work. If you're thinking of taking advantage of their prey drives for protection work, this dog is not going to attack on command. The CSV has certain uses but is more of an all-around dog than a specialized one.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
624 Posts
It was not. They ended the experiment and later on show breeders took what has been done and registered the breed with the FCI, but the Czechoslovakians stopped to use these dogs for working purposes and neither, Czech nor Slovaks, use them today. I do not know of any army in the world that uses them today, please prove me wrong.
Yet you adopted the breed. You think Kavik - appropriately named by the way - has qualities useful to you? Let us know how it works out!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,742 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
I adopted the breed because I think it can be MORE challenging than other breeds already proven. My next chosen dog for SAR will be a Malinois. I adopted it because I want to learn from the differences and difficulties I may find on the way to improve as a trainer.

On the worst case, he's stunning beautiful and every girl has the right of a pretty dog :D
 
1 - 20 of 94 Posts
Top