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Discussion Starter #1
Background story: Our club jump has 3 sections. My dog easily jumps 2 sections and during training for the full height (on the club jump) , she hurt herself. For some reason we stake down the hurdle so it will not fall over and unfortunately if the dog fails to make the full height, they are basically slamming into a solid wall. The end result is that my dog refuses to jump the club jump at full height. I built a finely adjustable wooden jump in my back garden and my girl will now easily and happily jump 50 inches (slightly over the 1m). However she still refuses to jump the club jump. If I really encourage her and run alongside her she will eventually jump it but it takes a lot of excitement and build up to get her to do it. In my back yard she will jump the 50 inches without me even asking.
So I believe she has a mental block regarding the club jump and identifies/associates it with the time she got hurt.

Has anyone got any good suggestions on how to handle this? If I remove the top section and go back to 2 sections she jumps it absolutely no problem, it's only when the top section is on that she balks. The 6ft wall is absolutely no problem for her. I was thinking about maybe changing up the routine and doing the jump first rather than near the end to see if that would make a difference. One other suggestion I got was to get another board (which looks like the top section) and leave it leaning against the jump (like we do with the top section when it is not being used), this might "trick" the dog into thinking the jump is not at full height.
 

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50 inches isn't slightly over 1 meter it's almost a foot taller.
 

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How did you train her to jump 50"? Maybe meet with some agility people. Some dogs naturally jump very well but most need to be trained proper technique if you want a SAFE, consistent jump at any height taller than the dog. If her technique is good she should be confident with any style of jump.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Go back and get the club to change the jump. Any dog "slamming: into a non moving wall will cause a setback. See if they can make it where it will collapse when hit and maybe change the wood style on it so she "see's something different and retrain.
Thanks that's where I'm thinking the solution is. We use this jump as the trial jump, so at least at training I might get away with a different jump.
I reread the jump section in gottfried dildeis book tonight and I think I got a new inspiration. I've always been running my dog up to the jump and per gottfried this is a recipe for disaster. I did a bit of work afterwards with a 35 inch jump with my dog sitting right in front (about 1ft) from the jump and got her to happily launch from sit over the jump in both directions. First 2 jumps were messy but the next 4 were lovely clean arches. I think I need to go back to basics on this exercise.

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Discussion Starter #8
One other thing I should mention is that I train at home on grass but our club trains on sand. I think launching off sand requires more effort and maybe different dynamic than grass, so this may be a factor.
 

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Yes the surface is a factor. I'm still curious how you trained the jumping. 40/50...makes no difference to me (I watched a dog clear 60" recently). I'd still recommend focusing on the actual technique of jumping and not the type of jump or height of the jump (but until the dog is trained to jump near 40", I would not be using solid wall jumps to train technique).
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Yes the surface is a factor. I'm still curious how you trained the jumping. 40/50...makes no difference to me (I watched a dog clear 60" recently). I'd still recommend focusing on the actual technique of jumping and not the type of jump or height of the jump (but until the dog is trained to jump near 40", I would not be using solid wall jumps to train technique).
I think I'm starting to realize this. I also think you may have even mentioned this to me in a prior post too when I was asking about moving to the full height jump.

Our club basically trains us to run at the jump from about ten feet back. There's no real emphasis on technique, just make the dog clear the jump. Most of our dogs have problems with the jump, for example my dog refuses unless I really encourage her, another dog has so much dumbbell drive she would break through the jump to get to it and isn't phased by being hurt, another dog working line uses the jump as a launch pad, she is petite, and launches off the wall with her hind legs. Most of the rest of the dogs will not attempt the full jump.

It's a mish mash.



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Most of the dogs I see with correct jumping that can consistently jump the full height without problems fall under one or more of the following categories...

They were originally trained to jump Linda Mecklenburg style (whether they knew it or not).

They were originally trained to jump Susan Salo jump grid style (whether they knew it or not)...and I gather that horse people tend to do something very similar.

They did not train a "prey" retrieve where the dog was attracted to the dumbbell but trained a retrieve where the dumbbell was neutral and/or a forced retrieve.


The first two points are ways to train a dog proper jumping technique and "collection" so the dog can physically lift himself over a jump of just about any height. I do agility but use these same exercises when warming up the jump at Schutzhund or going back to them if we haven't done a full height SchH jump in a while. I say "whether they knew it or not" because I've seen SchH people start to try these techniques on their own without realizing they are great and this is how many agility people train jumping (but ther are also SchH people who think that if a dog is jumping flat you need to add MORE distance and throw the dog's FAVORITE toy over the jump.....ahhh no). The third point is that if there is too much drive or attraction for the dumbbell itself, even dogs who have high agility titles and never knock bars in agility and can jump 40" clean all day long can hit the jump when the dumbbell is involved. So, depending on the root of the problem it can be an issue of jumping technique and/or an issue of the actual retrieve.
 

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Agree with Lies. I trained jumps cavaletti style..... Salo.
I would also try moving the location of the club jump, and using a different jump at the club, in a different location to start.
 

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The first time Keeta did the full height jump - she scrapped her belly and refused to jump again. She was like your dog, I could get her to jump at home, and over different obstacles, but there was a strong negative association with our club jump. It comes apart in two sections, so we can't build it up incrementally.

What I did is start by draping a towel over the half jump, to change its appearance. Then using a bungee cord across the two jump posts with the towel over it to gradually bring the jump height up. When she was jumping confidently I put the top half back on with the towel, then changed the towel to be the same colour as the jump, and finally took the towel away.

She was like your dog, needed a lot of excited energy and encouragement to jump the full height.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Agree with Lies. I trained jumps cavaletti style..... Salo.
I would also try moving the location of the club jump, and using a different jump at the club, in a different location to start.

Thanks gagsd/Lies, I'll look up those jump methods.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
The first time Keeta did the full height jump - she scrapped her belly and refused to jump again. She was like your dog, I could get her to jump at home, and over different obstacles, but there was a strong negative association with our club jump. It comes apart in two sections, so we can't build it up incrementally.

What I did is start by draping a towel over the half jump, to change its appearance. Then using a bungee cord across the two jump posts with the towel over it to gradually bring the jump height up. When she was jumping confidently I put the top half back on with the towel, then changed the towel to be the same colour as the jump, and finally took the towel away.

She was like your dog, needed a lot of excited energy and encouragement to jump the full height.

That's a very interesting approach to a solution. Over how long of a period did this take? Is it too much to work/advanced a little bit every day or would you limit jump training to just a few days a week?
Was she jumping normally after the process?
 

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I worked on it over a summer. I was at our club about two, three times a week. It was a lot of work, and she is older now and has ACL issues, so we don't train/compete anymore. One reason I did not pursue titling her further was the jump. I have to give her credit for working her heart out for me, but I could see what a huge effort it was for her to jump the full height - I could see it in her face when she was coming back over it. Contrasting that to Gryff, who DOES jump close to 50 inches, and makes it seem effortless.

Our helper felt that Keeta could have titled (SchH1), but I felt she was working more to please me than to please herself, and did not have the heart to push her on. Though the towel and bungee cord trick worked for her, do look into working on jumping exercises for your dog as suggested by the others above.

I've done jump chutes and calivetti work with Gryffon to get him more to focus and think (he was the kind of dog that just bowled the jump over because he was too high in drive to think about what he had to do to jump), and it has done wonders to develop his planning and focus when faced with a jump.
 

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Thanks, do you have a link to the article (mentioned in plans) on how to use?
Not really. You'd have to buy the Salo DVDs. There probably are articles out there though. Just google around. There's lots of youtube videos on the "salo spider." The DVD is going to give you the most info on what to look out for/how it works though.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I worked on it over a summer. I was at our club about two, three times a week. It was a lot of work, and she is older now and has ACL issues, so we don't train/compete anymore. One reason I did not pursue titling her further was the jump. I have to give her credit for working her heart out for me, but I could see what a huge effort it was for her to jump the full height - I could see it in her face when she was coming back over it. Contrasting that to Gryff, who DOES jump close to 50 inches, and makes it seem effortless.

Our helper felt that Keeta could have titled (SchH1), but I felt she was working more to please me than to please herself, and did not have the heart to push her on. Though the towel and bungee cord trick worked for her, do look into working on jumping exercises for your dog as suggested by the others above.

I've done jump chutes and calivetti work with Gryffon to get him more to focus and think (he was the kind of dog that just bowled the jump over because he was too high in drive to think about what he had to do to jump), and it has done wonders to develop his planning and focus when faced with a jump.
That's good to know. Maggie seems to have no physical issue with jumping the height (just mental ones :)) so I'm hopeful we can work through it.


BTW Keeta and Maggie have exactly the same titles :) , Maggie refused the jump in OB1 but still managed to pass.
 
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