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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
We just picked up our new pup, AKC registered. Upon close look at the AKC printout from the breeder we have noticed two things:

the mom and dad are half bother/sister (from the same dad);
also, the Mom's mom, is a grandmother of the father (so the father's half-sister is also his aunt).

Hope this makes sense.

Is this concerning? We have 3 days days to return him without reason. Are we going to be ok keeping him, or should we rather return him? We are not planning on breeding him in the future.
 

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We just picked up our new pup, AKC registered. Upon close look at the AKC printout from the breeder we have noticed two things:

the mom and dad are half bother/sister (from the same dad);
also, the Mom's mom, is a grandmother of the father (so the father's half-sister is also his aunt).

Hope this makes sense.

Is this concerning? We have 3 days days to return him without reason. Are we going to be ok keeping him, or should we rather return him? We are not planning on breeding him in the future.
If I am reading it right, there is a 2-2 breeding on the sire of the dam and sire, and 3-3 breeding on the dam of the dam. Not that it matters, but Germany used to allow a 2-3 breeding, but now the closest they allow is a 3-3 unless that has changed recently. The 3-3 breeding is allowed, but that should only be done by folks who know the pedigrees and are looking for something specific in breeding to those dogs, and the dogs chosen to line breed or in breed on should be spectacular in health, temperament, and conformation. The AKC, which is NOT a breed registry like the SV is, has no restrictions on how closely bred a dog is. Breeding closely does not create issues, but if issues are there (and all dogs have something back there), they are much more likely to come out in the puppies. If you decide to keep this puppy, I strongly advise you to get pet health insurance.

The dog gets 50% of their genes from sire and dam. Let's call their parents by letter-names, normally in the second generation you would have w/x, y/z; but what you have is x/y and x/z. So where you should have 4 dogs providing 100% of the genes of the sire and dam, you have one dog providing 50% of the genes and 2 others providing the other 50%. In the third generation you should have a/b, c/d, e/f, and g/h. What you have is a/b, c/d, a/b, and c/e -- you can see how there is not much diversity in this, and the likeliness for recessive genes to come out is much higher, and that includes genetic issues.

You have two choices here. A responsible breeder, if they had deliberately bred closely for some purpose -- to set a trait for example, or if the breeding was accidental, they would have disclosed that to you with possible repercussions and a limited registration, or no AKC papers at all. This should not be a surprise when perusing the paperwork after bringing the pup home. Returning the puppy and getting a full refund would mean not supporting them.

The other choice is to keep the puppy because it is already here and it does need a home. Being aware that it may have physical/health issues down the road means preparing for that up front, and hopefully it won't come to be.

Well, it always does come to be eventually, even with properly bred dogs, unless they are hit by a car or otherwise killed by accident, they will succumb to some sort of illness, we hope after a full span of years. It would be easier to root out these kind of breeders if every dog they created had to be put down or died by age 5, but that simply isn't the case. Some do live full lives and are relatively free of health issues. With all the problems in the breed, we try to stack the deck in our favor so to speak, by going with breeders who are breeding for temperament, health and longevity, and that means carefully blending pedigrees, and careful line breeding -- not what was done here.

And, it would be easier to root out these sort of breeders if we didn't let our hearts rule our heads when it comes to the pup in front of us. It is hard to not look at the pup and say to yourself, "it wasn't your fault." After making the decision to get a dog, finding a breeder within your price and distance range, and waiting for your pup and finally bringing it home, to take it back. It's hard to take points off the scoreboard. I'd take the pup back because they didn't let you know up front that this was an experimental litter or an accidental litter between closely related dogs. The sooner the better, with every hour that passes, the more bonded you become to the little fur-ball.

I am sorry you are in this position.
 

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I would guess from Selzer’s post it’s more likely an accidental breeding which they decided to sell and not point out to you. If it’s intentional, it’s irresponsible. If this is a good breeder, it makes less sense than if it’s an inexperienced or backyard breeder.
 

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I would be hesitant with taking on a poorly bred dog. Our Elke is a shelter dog who was a horrible dog there, scratching and jumping all over everyone and refusing a leash, etc. But she did decide to sit in front of us and wag her tail so she got a home. At home she is an absolute sweetheart. Never misbehaves, always by your side and affectionate with no major health issues. However, in public she is a nightmare. Elke is a screamer, loud, shrill and acting like she's being horribly abused. Our vet attributed it to poor breeding. We always have to wait outside with her or be stared at. Even then people ask what is wrong with her. She does not handle any kind of stress well. Poor breeding - in your case inbreeding - can be difficult, if not impossible to overcome. So now is when you have to decide whether to take a chance and hope you don't have major health and temperament problems. And, if so, are you are willing to accept and work with them? I'm afraid that is something only you can answer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
If I am reading it right, there is a 2-2 breeding on the sire of the dam and sire, and 3-3 breeding on the dam of the dam. Not that it matters, but Germany used to allow a 2-3 breeding, but now the closest they allow is a 3-3 unless that has changed recently. The 3-3 breeding is allowed, but that should only be done by folks who know the pedigrees and are looking for something specific in breeding to those dogs, and the dogs chosen to line breed or in breed on should be spectacular in health, temperament, and conformation. The AKC, which is NOT a breed registry like the SV is, has no restrictions on how closely bred a dog is. Breeding closely does not create issues, but if issues are there (and all dogs have something back there), they are much more likely to come out in the puppies. If you decide to keep this puppy, I strongly advise you to get pet health insurance.

The dog gets 50% of their genes from sire and dam. Let's call their parents by letter-names, normally in the second generation you would have w/x, y/z; but what you have is x/y and x/z. So where you should have 4 dogs providing 100% of the genes of the sire and dam, you have one dog providing 50% of the genes and 2 others providing the other 50%. In the third generation you should have a/b, c/d, e/f, and g/h. What you have is a/b, c/d, a/b, and c/e -- you can see how there is not much diversity in this, and the likeliness for recessive genes to come out is much higher, and that includes genetic issues.

You have two choices here. A responsible breeder, if they had deliberately bred closely for some purpose -- to set a trait for example, or if the breeding was accidental, they would have disclosed that to you with possible repercussions and a limited registration, or no AKC papers at all. This should not be a surprise when perusing the paperwork after bringing the pup home. Returning the puppy and getting a full refund would mean not supporting them.

The other choice is to keep the puppy because it is already here and it does need a home. Being aware that it may have physical/health issues down the road means preparing for that up front, and hopefully it won't come to be.

Well, it always does come to be eventually, even with properly bred dogs, unless they are hit by a car or otherwise killed by accident, they will succumb to some sort of illness, we hope after a full span of years. It would be easier to root out these kind of breeders if every dog they created had to be put down or died by age 5, but that simply isn't the case. Some do live full lives and are relatively free of health issues. With all the problems in the breed, we try to stack the deck in our favor so to speak, by going with breeders who are breeding for temperament, health and longevity, and that means carefully blending pedigrees, and careful line breeding -- not what was done here.

And, it would be easier to root out these sort of breeders if we didn't let our hearts rule our heads when it comes to the pup in front of us. It is hard to not look at the pup and say to yourself, "it wasn't your fault." After making the decision to get a dog, finding a breeder within your price and distance range, and waiting for your pup and finally bringing it home, to take it back. It's hard to take points off the scoreboard. I'd take the pup back because they didn't let you know up front that this was an experimental litter or an accidental litter between closely related dogs. The sooner the better, with every hour that passes, the more bonded you become to the little fur-ball.

I am sorry you are in this position.
I would like to very much thank you for your lengthy reply. You response was quick and helped us to make the right decision. Right after reading this we called the breeder and told him that we would like to bring the puppy back. We returned him that afternoon. Again, thank you very much. You likely saved us a lot of trouble down the road.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I would guess from Selzer’s post it’s more likely an accidental breeding which they decided to sell and not point out to you. If it’s intentional, it’s irresponsible. If this is a good breeder, it makes less sense than if it’s an inexperienced or backyard breeder.
I just replied to Selzer - we decided to return the puppy... It's not the dogs fault, but we also don't want to support this type of breeding...
 

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If I am reading it right, there is a 2-2 breeding on the sire of the dam and sire, and 3-3 breeding on the dam of the dam. Not that it matters, but Germany used to allow a 2-3 breeding, but now the closest they allow is a 3-3 unless that has changed recently. The 3-3 breeding is allowed, but that should only be done by folks who know the pedigrees and are looking for something specific in breeding to those dogs, and the dogs chosen to line breed or in breed on should be spectacular in health, temperament, and conformation. The AKC, which is NOT a breed registry like the SV is, has no restrictions on how closely bred a dog is. Breeding closely does not create issues, but if issues are there (and all dogs have something back there), they are much more likely to come out in the puppies. If you decide to keep this puppy, I strongly advise you to get pet health insurance.

The dog gets 50% of their genes from sire and dam. Let's call their parents by letter-names, normally in the second generation you would have w/x, y/z; but what you have is x/y and x/z. So where you should have 4 dogs providing 100% of the genes of the sire and dam, you have one dog providing 50% of the genes and 2 others providing the other 50%. In the third generation you should have a/b, c/d, e/f, and g/h. What you have is a/b, c/d, a/b, and c/e -- you can see how there is not much diversity in this, and the likeliness for recessive genes to come out is much higher, and that includes genetic issues.

You have two choices here. A responsible breeder, if they had deliberately bred closely for some purpose -- to set a trait for example, or if the breeding was accidental, they would have disclosed that to you with possible repercussions and a limited registration, or no AKC papers at all. This should not be a surprise when perusing the paperwork after bringing the pup home. Returning the puppy and getting a full refund would mean not supporting them.

The other choice is to keep the puppy because it is already here and it does need a home. Being aware that it may have physical/health issues down the road means preparing for that up front, and hopefully it won't come to be.

Well, it always does come to be eventually, even with properly bred dogs, unless they are hit by a car or otherwise killed by accident, they will succumb to some sort of illness, we hope after a full span of years. It would be easier to root out these kind of breeders if every dog they created had to be put down or died by age 5, but that simply isn't the case. Some do live full lives and are relatively free of health issues. With all the problems in the breed, we try to stack the deck in our favor so to speak, by going with breeders who are breeding for temperament, health and longevity, and that means carefully blending pedigrees, and careful line breeding -- not what was done here.

And, it would be easier to root out these sort of breeders if we didn't let our hearts rule our heads when it comes to the pup in front of us. It is hard to not look at the pup and say to yourself, "it wasn't your fault." After making the decision to get a dog, finding a breeder within your price and distance range, and waiting for your pup and finally bringing it home, to take it back. It's hard to take points off the scoreboard. I'd take the pup back because they didn't let you know up front that this was an experimental litter or an accidental litter between closely related dogs. The sooner the better, with every hour that passes, the more bonded you become to the little fur-ball.

I am sorry you are in this position.
Thanks for the detailed explanation.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I would be hesitant with taking on a poorly bred dog. Our Elke is a shelter dog who was a horrible dog there, scratching and jumping all over everyone and refusing a leash, etc. But she did decide to sit in front of us and wag her tail so she got a home. At home she is an absolute sweetheart. Never misbehaves, always by your side and affectionate with no major health issues. However, in public she is a nightmare. Elke is a screamer, loud, shrill and acting like she's being horribly abused. Our vet attributed it to poor breeding. We always have to wait outside with her or be stared at. Even then people ask what is wrong with her. She does not handle any kind of stress well. Poor breeding - in your case inbreeding - can be difficult, if not impossible to overcome. So now is when you have to decide whether to take a chance and hope you don't have major health and temperament problems. And, if so, are you are willing to accept and work with them? I'm afraid that is something only you can answer.
Thank you for your reply, just saw it now. As soon as we read Selzer's reply (yesterday morning) we made the call and decided to return the puppy. There was one more issue I did not mention, and this could be a puppy thing, but certainly personally haven't encountered it in any of the friend's/relative's puppies, but now that you mentioned issues with your dog, it might be related to his breeding. When we saw him on the premises he was totally fine. During the car ride he was sweet and adorable, wanted to sit in my lap the whole time. As soon as we got home, showed him around and then put him into a play pen he would cry, whine, howl - without stopping for a second. The only way to stop him was to stand right next to him, or to touch him. We did not want to give in as we need a firm structure from the beginning. Let me tell you - we had 0 sleep that night, as the poor dog would not stop. He would stop after maybe 10-15 minutes, but even the slightest move/turn would trigger him all over again.

Even when we took him downstairs the next morning, or outside, he would walk around and constantly/randomly whine and cry - and that was with us being present in the room, or outside, just not touching him. When I was trying to read my husband Selzer's reply I had to go outside because he could hear me over the continuous cry/bark. But I understand, it's a puppy in a brand new environment. If separation anxiety was the only issue, we could have dealt with that and hopefully it would stop over time, but once we found out about this breeding issue, that was it. We made the call and decided to return him. When my husband called the breeder, as soon as he said we want to return him, he instantly said "is it because of the whining?". So he knew about that. They told us someone else was supposed to buy him before us, but they didn't. I'm starting to suspect he might have been returned previously. It doesn't matter now. It's unfortunately not the puppy's fault, but we don't want to support this type of breeding. Thank you for your reply. Even though we are reading it after the fact, it just confirms that we made the right decision. Thank you for taking the time and replying to us.
 

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Thank you. I think you made a good decision, for the right reason. The puppies will find home, maybe for less than the owner originally wanted. That's on him. He should not have allowed that to happen, or should have at least been up front about it. As for the whining and crying, that is normal. It usually takes 3 days for a young pup to get over the loss of its dam and littermates. I wouldn't call it separation anxiety yet. Dogs are not solitary animals, and a puppy has known nothing but a pile of puppies and his momma, along with the breeder and their family. They are literally NEVER alone prior to going to their new home. If that is done at approximately the right time, it should be over with in a few days. If it is done early, the dog loses learning that it should have gotten in the litter and can have long term consequences. If a dog stays with its dam and litter beyond 3 months or so, they do not get that boost of confidence, that sink or swim. For some dogs this can become an issue. And others have little trouble even if they stay with their dam/littermate for years. I think it just depends on the dog. When you do get your new pup, be prepared for a couple of sleepless nights. The good news is that I have yet to hear the answer "those first few days when the pup was whining and crying and we couldn't sleep" to the question what is the worst part of dog ownership. Our brains are built to forget a lot of unpleasantness. For this reason, people who have owned puppies before, are still sometimes overwhelmed by the energy or biting or trouble with housebreaking. Of course some puppies are easier, but it is also true that 4 or 8 or 12 years ago when we had that last puppy, we were younger and it was just easier to manage.

Ah puppies! Puppies will make them sleep. Or was that poppies? Yeah well, same difference.
 

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Eska von den Roten Vorbergen
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There was one more issue I did not mention, and this could be a puppy thing, but certainly personally haven't encountered it in any of the friend's/relative's puppies, but now that you mentioned issues with your dog, it might be related to his breeding. When we saw him on the premises he was totally fine. During the car ride he was sweet and adorable, wanted to sit in my lap the whole time. As soon as we got home, showed him around and then put him into a play pen he would cry, whine, howl - without stopping for a second. The only way to stop him was to stand right next to him, or to touch him.
Salsa, first, I think you did the right thing by returning the puppy.

As for the crying and howling, it's fairly common with a puppy that's been separated from its littermates and is on its own for the very first time. I saw it happen with my uncle's border collie pup the first night she was home. What helped was giving her a hot water bottle, an nice, warm fuzzy sweater to remind her of her litter mates, and an old-fashioned ticking alarm clock to simulate the heartbeat of her mom! She settled right down after that!

Any sudden change is bound to be stressful for a young pup!
 

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We did the ticking clock with one of the puppies when I was a kid. Now I just put a new pup in with an older dog or bitch, and usually that works just fine. If you have just one though, that obviously doesn't work.
 
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