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I had a GSD hybrid at 10 years old come down with Old Dog Encephalitis. This happened exactly two weeks after he had received his yearly shots. Luckily a course of hydro-cortisone and antibiotics cured him. His health had been exceptional until this incident.

I immediately started researching this condition and found a bunch of unsettling information from several sources.

The first is that the veterinary health industry has done a good job through lobbying at the state legislatures to get rabies shots mandated at one year and sometimes three year intervals when clinical studies have shown the rabies vaccinations protect our furry friends out to ten years.

The second eye opener was the assertion that the individual cost for one vial of rabies vaccine is around .15 cents to a clinic. This shot plus the labor to administer it runs what? $15.00 to $25.00 for the owner which is an approximate 6000% increase. The source made a rough estimate that with an approximate canine patient load of 250 dogs, simply shifting a yearly vaccine out to every five years would subject the "typical" clinic to a substantial loss in pure profit.

Now understand, I am not laying this at the feet of rabies vaccines alone but when you involve this frequency with all of the other vaccines and their "purported" frequencies of need . . . . . Your thoughts?
 

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Your dog is ten. Frankly, I would not do any more vaccines on the dog from here on out. If he makes it to 13, that is way old for a GSD, and every day beyond is a bonus and blessing anyway. I would be afraid that IF this was a reaction from his vaccinations, then the chances are when he is due again, it may just kill him.
 

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Pssssp! By the way, if you insinuate anything about some vets wanting to make money or maybe being motivated by anything but a simple and pure love of critters, you will get the cold shoulder by some here.
 

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Pssssp! By the way, if you insinuate anything about some vets wanting to make money or maybe being motivated by anything but a simple and pure love of critters, you will get the cold shoulder by some here.
:spittingcoffee:
 

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How Drug Company Money Is Undermining Science


Don’t blame Betty White. Don’t throw your hands up in despair. Stop playing defense and start playing the pharmaceutical sales game by your rules. Fritz Wood, CPA, CFP, says veterinarians must play offense to realize their revenue potential and gain home field advantage over retail pharmacies.
The rules of the game have changed quickly and dramatically. Medications are no longer exclusive to veterinarians, big-box stores discount prices, and the weak economy makes client compliance for things like heartworm prevention a hard pill to swallow. Despite all that, Wood says clinics can do a better job of selling products--to stay healthy financially, they must. “Generally speaking, products sales are at least 25 to 30 percent of your business and businesses aren’t in a position to give up and lose a quarter or a third of their business,” Wood says. “The only alternative is they have to defend their business--even grow it.”
That’s why every team member must be involved--the veterinarian can’t do it alone. “You have to look at each of those touch points and ask, ‘What do we want to happen here.’” Woods thinks conversations on products usually happen randomly, not intentionally. A recommendation and compliance cannot be achieved with one suggestion. “It has to be reinforced probably multiple times, by multiple people, probably by multiple media,” he says.
Marketing the message
That means not only talking with clients, but actively advertising and promoting too. Wood says to make banners and signs; send emails and reminders; display products and deals--address medications when clients come through the door. And regardless of price, always keep the message about standard of care. It’s not just about selling a product; it’s about healthy pets. Wood even suggests providing videos of heartworm removal. “Show them what non-compliance looks like.”
The value of veterinary expertise
He says veterinarians can keep it about wellness by avoiding the feeling of retail--like having the receptionist offer the medication as a client is leaving the office. “If the doc puts the product on the table in the exam room--that’s medical.” And that translates to the client.

Above from Doctor of veterinary Medicine "business section" website
Play offense in the pharmaceutical marketplace - DVM
 

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What is “Old Dog Encephalitis?”
The condition called “Old Dog Encephalitis” refers to a chronic brain inflammation that can occur in a dog that had distemper many years prior. These brain lesions are identical to those in dogs who progress to a chronic neurologic distemper as part of the brunt of their infection. For some reason, in some individuals, the dog lives nearly all its life as a distemper survivor only to break with neurodistemper in old age.
What is vaccinial distemper? Can a dog actually get distemper from its vaccine?
Vaccinial distemper refers to the development of neurodistemper 10 to 21 days after administration of a modified live distemper vaccine (it is not possible to have this reaction when a recombinant vaccine is used).
Distemper - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!

I feel very bad for people who are unable to develop good relationships with good vets. I had to bring a dog in on Sunday for emergency. The vet was caring and helpful, and was able to downcharge some items by finding subq fluids that had been started and not finished and other things like that, while still getting the diagnostics, information and treatment that my dog needed. This was a life-threatening emergency (HGE), the dog was known to the vet and I was able to bring her back home with me, instead of hospitalization for multiple days at a much greater cost.

Hard to imagine, I guess, that looking at the whole picture of the dog, my supervision, the vet's willingness to chat on her cell with me throughout the day as needed, allowed her to make the decision to release my dog to my care, while losing all that money.

I am not sure why vets are expected not to want to stay in business. I guess my question is how many people who don't have dogs with chronic health issues, or that are being used for breeding, or have accidents/ingestions, etc, would bring their pet in for their yearly wellness check minus the concept of vaccines and heartworm/tick tests? Those visits help to establish that relationship as a partner with your vet, get baseline information for the animals, and are important, but people won't use them.

In fact, I was sent on a home check for someone who was not using preventatives for heartworm and was not testing - and whose vet was fine with that. I talked to her for a long time about the dangers - she had a Chi so a single heartworm could be deadly. She took her dog in that week for testing and the poor little thing had anaplasmosis. http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2101&aid=3621

And again, so many dogs actually get HW - it's not some scam - it's not implanted into mosquitoes by the Veterinary lobby.

I am not so naive as to think that there are not vets who view it as business first, medicine second, and vets who are not as good as other vets. However, if everyone here is so smart that they can out-vet the vets, they should be smart enough to realize that they could seek out a better vet for their pets. At the same time, bashing all vets or painting them with the same brush is not helpful to anyone.

They aren't volunteers - they are doctors who work on multiple species, have teams of people working for and with them, and provide a valuable service.
 

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:thumbup: Jean:)
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Your dog is ten. Frankly, I would not do any more vaccines on the dog from here on out. If he makes it to 13, that is way old for a GSD, and every day beyond is a bonus and blessing anyway. I would be afraid that IF this was a reaction from his vaccinations, then the chances are when he is due again, it may just kill him.
Actually we had to have him put down at 13. That's him in my avatar.

As far as bruising the delicate proclivities of some on this forum.......meh !
 

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Distemper - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!

I feel very bad for people who are unable to develop good relationships with good vets. I had to bring a dog in on Sunday for emergency. The vet was caring and helpful, and was able to downcharge some items by finding subq fluids that had been started and not finished and other things like that, while still getting the diagnostics, information and treatment that my dog needed. This was a life-threatening emergency (HGE), the dog was known to the vet and I was able to bring her back home with me, instead of hospitalization for multiple days at a much greater cost.

Hard to imagine, I guess, that looking at the whole picture of the dog, my supervision, the vet's willingness to chat on her cell with me throughout the day as needed, allowed her to make the decision to release my dog to my care, while losing all that money.

I am not sure why vets are expected not to want to stay in business. I guess my question is how many people who don't have dogs with chronic health issues, or that are being used for breeding, or have accidents/ingestions, etc, would bring their pet in for their yearly wellness check minus the concept of vaccines and heartworm/tick tests? Those visits help to establish that relationship as a partner with your vet, get baseline information for the animals, and are important, but people won't use them.

In fact, I was sent on a home check for someone who was not using preventatives for heartworm and was not testing - and whose vet was fine with that. I talked to her for a long time about the dangers - she had a Chi so a single heartworm could be deadly. She took her dog in that week for testing and the poor little thing had anaplasmosis. Anaplasmosis in Dogs

And again, so many dogs actually get HW - it's not some scam - it's not implanted into mosquitoes by the Veterinary lobby.

I am not so naive as to think that there are not vets who view it as business first, medicine second, and vets who are not as good as other vets. However, if everyone here is so smart that they can out-vet the vets, they should be smart enough to realize that they could seek out a better vet for their pets. At the same time, bashing all vets or painting them with the same brush is not helpful to anyone.

They aren't volunteers - they are doctors who work on multiple species, have teams of people working for and with them, and provide a valuable service.

Read the OP again and maybe translate what you wrote in response to it?
 

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Read the OP again and maybe translate what you wrote in response to it?
I think it was more so a response to the link I provided...you see I advocate for healthy natural food first to promote a strong healthy immune system, treating minor issues naturally and saving drug therapies where it actually necessitates...prevention is easier then cure and non toxic. The over use of vaccines, pesticides, abx., denatured foods do NOT promote health... REAL food is health care, medicine is sick care...I read somewhere (no link) that with the right nutrition over 60% of disease can be prevented - therefore less need for noted abx., etc. and less toxicity (drug treatments) leading to further illness and age related and/or acute/chronic disease states.

There was one member on this board who misconstrued everything I ever suggested and stated things like "just b/c you have a problem with vets", just to instigate a fight and/or discredit my opinions...some how their interpretation/twisting of my comments and their opinion has resinated to others, who also seem to think I am anti-vet...I do think that just b/c a vet has gone to med school and spent 100's of thousands of dollars to be lisenced to "practice" medicine doesn't give them the right to pad the bottom line with the over use of drugs where good husbandry, natural non-toxic, non-profit alternatives can be used....I don't think they deliberatly try to drive illness deeper into our pets, but I do believe they have bills to pay and as long as the sales people or the food/pharma companies that subsidized their education for profit are giving our vets some false sense of what is "safe" as a go to treatment...

Vets have witnessed time and time again how simply changing to RAW diet has had profound effects on chronic conditions...BUT they cannot promote health...so they go under the guise of prevention...fleas/ticks/HW...however, it is well documented that pesticides are toxic...SO WHY would they do this...Profit.

So what I have a problem with, the medical industry as a whole and the monopoly they have in the "Health Care" industry...again - food is health care
 

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It seems that your dog had was the result of either an old distemper illness from the past or less likely, a modified live distemper vaccine 10-21 days prior. I wasn't sure if you had figured out what caused the illness.

The rabies challenge has not yet determined that the rabies vaccine - which is the one you discussed - is safe out that far, I do not believe. It has not been accepted by medical associations yet - and because of that, the liability of a vet recommending a 10 year shot would be immense - not because your dog might die of rabies, but because everyone they came into contact would sue that vet for personal liability.

A vet office is run by many people - all who need to be paid, and here in the US, unlike Canada, health insurance to be covered as well. Since it's an active place to work, with lots of risk of bites, lifting injuries, etc, worker's compensation has to be covered as well. Insurance on any vehicles and the vehicles they may use for visits, updated equipment (I like that my vet has the capability for blood testing, digital x-rays, etc), on-going training and education, the physical building upkeep, lights, heat, and insurance, liability insurance for people who may fall bringing in a rowdy puppy, supplies, etc. So that's how a low cost vaccine becomes a higher priced item.

These are all logical, understandable reasons. There is no Vetluminati.

The idea that a vet will not encourage good nutrition with a knowledgeable client (ask them about the scenarios they've seen of dogs/cats being fed home meals that cause them to caution you about it - that asking why is going to give you a lot of information), or educate on avenues for them to gain that knowledge, or work with you in preventative care is preposterous. If they are looking only for financial gain, the gain is in the senior years - the longer they can keep a dog going, the more money they are going to make in that back end of the dog's years, as dogs get more expensive as they age, and the opportunities for profit increase even in a healthy dog being treated by food (I read somewhere is not a good source).

Making board members question, look at, work with, talk to their vets is a good thing - as long as it is not overtaken by the idea that they are involved in a conspiracy to rob you and keep your dog ill for profit. That becomes dangerous and you never know what impact that could have on someone reading these threads. So work with your vet, talk to them about things, ask the why questions, most of them are real people, most of them will talk back and those that won't, again, look elsewhere until you find vets that you can partner with in the health and well-being of your pets.
 

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I think it was more so a response to the link I provided...you see I advocate for healthy natural food first to promote a strong healthy immune system, treating minor issues naturally and saving drug therapies where it actually necessitates...prevention is easier then cure and non toxic. The over use of vaccines, pesticides, abx., denatured foods do NOT promote health... REAL food is health care, medicine is sick care...I read somewhere (no link) that with the right nutrition over 60% of disease can be prevented - therefore less need for noted abx., etc. and less toxicity (drug treatments) leading to further illness and age related and/or acute/chronic disease states.

There was one member on this board who misconstrued everything I ever suggested and stated things like "just b/c you have a problem with vets", just to instigate a fight and/or discredit my opinions...some how their interpretation/twisting of my comments and their opinion has resinated to others, who also seem to think I am anti-vet...I do think that just b/c a vet has gone to med school and spent 100's of thousands of dollars to be lisenced to "practice" medicine doesn't give them the right to pad the bottom line with the over use of drugs where good husbandry, natural non-toxic, non-profit alternatives can be used....I don't think they deliberatly try to drive illness deeper into our pets, but I do believe they have bills to pay and as long as the sales people or the food/pharma companies that subsidized their education for profit are giving our vets some false sense of what is "safe" as a go to treatment...

Vets have witnessed time and time again how simply changing to RAW diet has had profound effects on chronic conditions...BUT they cannot promote health...so they go under the guise of prevention...fleas/ticks/HW...however, it is well documented that pesticides are toxic...SO WHY would they do this...Profit.

So what I have a problem with, the medical industry as a whole and the monopoly they have in the "Health Care" industry...again - food is health care
My response was not directed to your post GatorBytes. I am on board with your entire contribution. Natural feeding has shown an amazing result in our 5 yr old English Shepherd. He is thriving and though it is slightly labor intensive it is soooo much cheaper than bagged poisons. Out young'n we are getting late spring / early summer will know nothing but raw.

If you want a premier immune system in yourself, or your dogs, you should Google "Low Dose Naltrexone". I use it myself and also use it as an immune system tuneup and preventative in our pets.
 

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My response was not directed to your post GatorBytes. I am on board with your entire contribution. Natural feeding has shown an amazing result in our 5 yr old English Shepherd. He is thriving and though it is slightly labor intensive it is soooo much cheaper than bagged poisons. Out young'n we are getting late spring / early summer will know nothing but raw.

If you want a premier immune system in yourself, or your dogs, you should Google "Low Dose Naltrexone". I use it myself and also use it as an immune system tuneup and preventative in our pets.
Oh, no, I know it wasn't, I was refering to Jean's post as being "inpart" about my link and blurb from the DVM site on how to boost profits.

I will L/U, naltrexone, thanks:)

I use Bovine Colostrum on my dog - only using 1000mg/day, could double it...I recently noticed on his right elbow scab, that little wisps of fur are coming in - fur where there has NEVER been fur...a few yrs. back his scabs were almost completely gone while he was getting astragalus root (over a yrs. time)...I had taken him off and some other things happened, he also went through a doxy treatment - killed his GI tract etc. etc. - was very sick for long time - however, his elbow scabs came back like gangbusters, cracked, bleeding, 2.5x the size as ever...since colostrum started end of dec. they have shrunk by 1/2 and as I said - actual fur coming in, the scabs are soft too.
My vet said the elbow scabs are an immune system reaction (sort of like psoriasis). I have noted that on this forum - but am always contradicted with "it's from lying on hard surfaces"...
 

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elbow scabs? Or callouses?
 

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elbow scabs? Or callouses?
Callouses - you know the grey/black tough elephant type skin...and well scabs too from bleeding - but that's not happening either now
 

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Yes. Jax is the only one that has those but she is also the only one that really lays on the floor. Interesting...I'll look into that.
 

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Here is a pic from Sept/2012

100_0128 (600x800).jpg

and one from today (March 21/2013)

100_0347 (800x600).jpg

you can see the diff. in the circumference

back in 2010 after being on astragalas for a yr. that callous was about the size of the tip of my pinky finger.

Don't have a before pic of his right elbow, that is the one with sprigs of hair coming in throughout the scab...if you can see by the second pic at the bottomish/right - looks like hair plugs...lol:),

edit - so that is the improvement from about x-mas to now - about 2 and 1/2 months on mod. dose of colostrum
 

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Discussion Starter #18
It would be cheap to try, my wife uses O'Keefe's hand cream on her cracked fingers and it is amazing. No odor and all natural. Good stuff!
 

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I think it very right to challenge and question current wisdom re vaccinations.

Some of us are old enough, however, to remember people in school crippled by polio or now suffering post-polio syndrome, children who were severely mentally impaired or blinded or made deaf by high fevers caused by measles etc. .. I don't remember so much with the dogs other than some got sick and died.....but by the mid 60s our dogs were getting immunizations.

I have always believed the truth is somewhere in the middle. Strong immune systems don't fix everything but dogs are bombarded with a lot more than they are immunized for. Frequent reimmunization for viral diseases does not make a lot of sense and I am glad ongoing studies are, in fact, extending time recommendations for giving boosters.

I am still on my struggle with the lepto thing given the fact that I don't know a vet who gives the only (Merial recombitek4) vaccine documented to prevent leptospira shedding which still does not cover two of the more prevalent servovars infecting dogs. But "vaccinating" against bacterial infections has always seemed more of a challenge than against viral infections anyway.........

I am not going to buy the argument that vaccines don't work and what we see is a natural ebb and flow of disease. Not with the success of the smallpox vaccine a disease which predated written human history and caused massive death. It would be interesting to know if those of us vaccinated over 50 years ago still carry immunity, though. I know I had a solid titer for rubella in 1990 susequent to an infection in 1960

Dogs were most certainly dying of distemper and rabies when all they ate was a "natural" diet and they lived a life uncomplicated by environmental pollutants etc.

I had certainly never heard of "old dog encephalitis" before though. The Merck manual says that the conditions that trigger the syndrome are unknown. I would think if there was a causative link, this would be a common condition and I am not sure how hydrocortisone and antibiotics would fix a vaccine related issue.
 

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I have a good relationship with my vets. I also ask a LOT of questions, and do not do EVERYTHING they recommend.

And, I am in a position where I see more than just my vets. I see what other people's vets are doing to their dogs. Vets that are diagnosing hip dysplasia in a puppy without x-rays, vets that tell an owner to return a puppy with a slight heart murmur that was totally gone in 3 weeks, vets that diagnose a dog with pyometra and demand an immedieate spay even though the symptoms are not indicative of pyometra. And when asked if they take the dog to another clinic with an in house lab and ultrasound equipment if they could be more sure, the vet said no. Which wasn't true -- glad that person called thier own vet and on my recommendation to their dog to the better clinic. The diagnosis was incorrect and had they spayed the dog, it would have been likely that they would have lost her, because they would probably have not seen the real issue when they were in there -- that wasn't my take on it, but on the repro-vet's take on it. And I have seen vets charge people over $800 in a couple of months of well-puppy visits without even a spay in that. That is just insane. My vets will give you a spay and wellness visits for a couple of hundred.

Most of the time, my answer is to have people check with their vet, or take the dog to the vet. With vaccinations and when to spay/neuter though, I just don't trust vets on the whole to make their choice solely on what is best for the dog in question.
 
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