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Discussion Starter #1
Ok so I took Otto (8 Months)the vet yesterday b/c of severe lameness. After doing alot of research I new it had to Panosteitis. Which is like "doggie growing" pains in the long bone . Lameness can come and go, seemingly for months. It travels from leg to leg. So I take him to the vet a new vet might I add. ( I changed for personal reason) I love place very clean, nice people, didn't have to wait, very knowledgeable vet and techs. (Or so I thought) I even got a tour, not some thing I have experinced before. Otto and I were there for an hour. But to make a long story short. The vet did say it was panosteitis :(. The only thing I didn't agree with her on is with food. She told me that Otto needed to be on a large breed puppy food b/c he is a puppy.

He is on TOTW and I alternate the differnt flavors :D. I also feed raw in the evening. Which he loves. She suggested Royal Caine Large breed puppy for GSD. I told her I had him on that when he was very young (8 weeks - 4 months). He is 8 months old I was told to take him off puppy at 6 months. Also she said to stop the Raw diet until his panosteitis stops. Also there is not proff the raw diet is any better than kibble. Well ok.... So take him him off raw in evening and just kibble..... Change to Royal Caine? Nope I think I will stick to TOTW. She offered science diet... I laughed and said I defiently think not :mad:! The tech said "I feed it to my dogs." I laughed again I could help my self. I was trying to be nice. So what do you think?

Otto was healthy besides the panosteits. We have rimadyl 75mg and Tramadol. He seems to be doing better with the meds. He is 8 months old and 73lbs on the dot. He is going to be getting alot of RR and Kongs to play with. Lots of rest for my sweet boy.

I pulled this for TOTW website thought it might also be helpful.
Can I feed this food to my large breed puppy? Yes. All of the Taste of the Wild formulas meet the nutritional needs for growing puppies. Large breed puppies should be fed a little differently than small or medium breed puppies in order to control their growth rate. Overfeeding calories can lead to rapid growth, which puts stress on the developing bones and joints. It is important to keep your large breed puppy in lean body condition - ask your vet how to determine whether your puppy is lean or too heavy. You may have to adjust the feeding amount up or down from what is indicated on the package, the package just provides an estimate of the amount to feed and every puppy is a bit different.

Sorry for the long story....... :)
 

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Why would she think RAW has any play in pano?

I have seen other threads that say the TOTW has to much calcium for a puppy. If you do a search in the threads you'll probably find the info.
 

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When Penny was a puppy and was fed dog food I learned one of the most important things to look at in a commercial food for a large breed is the calcium and phosphorous levels. Do you know what they are in the TOTW?
 

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Onxy had three bouts of Pano, she was on kibble(TOTW) til 6 months and her first bout hit. I put her on raw and she had two more bouts after that. Karlo was rawfed from weaning and he had two bouts. IMO, I think it is a structural issue not so much nutrition. Though higher protein can lead to growth spurts causing Pano. And if you are feeding higher calcium levels than recommended that can affect the joints/bones. I would feed WEllNESS super5mix large breed puppy or ORIJEN if I were to feed kibble. TOTW isn't recommended because of the calcium/phosphorus ratios.
If the dog is on the larger end of the scale and has long legs, Pano will hit. Vitamin C will help reduce the inflammation and shorten the bout.
I kept both my pups lean, but they still got it.
 

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There have been several threads on this forum stating that TOTW has too much calcium/phosphorus for a large breed puppy. At 8 months I would have thought he would be ok on an adult food like TOTW, but if he is still having growth pains the first thing I would do is switch him to a large breed puppy food or ALS food with lower cal/phos levels than TOTW.

I wouldn't recommend Royal Canin though; I'd prefer Wellness LBP, Innova LBP, or Orijen LBP.
 

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Why would she think RAW has any play in pano?

I have seen other threads that say the TOTW has to much calcium for a puppy. If you do a search in the threads you'll probably find the info.

That's what I understood as well with the calcium levels. I went with Orijen instead.
 

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This is exactly why people recommend not feeding TOTW to puppies. It has too much calcium for a growing puppy. Too much calcium means bones growing too fast which makes dogs develop pano or possibly worst.

Personally, I would not even consider feeding TOTW to a puppy or a dog under two years old.

Your dog does not have to be on a large breed puppy formula, but I do recommend putting him on a kibble with more appropriate calcium / phosphorous percentages.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I'm not sure why she would think raw has any thing to do with Pano..... I will try vitiam C do they make it for dogs? Or human form ok? He is lean very fit. But he has long legs hug paws! But the vet said his weight it perfect. I dont think he looks abnormaly long legged though. I did have Otto also on Wellness Core before changing to TOTW. So Wellness Super 5 mix and Orijen? Does anyone feed this? How is your dog doing on it?
 

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TOTW doesn't acknowledge the levels on their site. That says they aren't appropriate. Wellness and Orijen do have them listed and know the values of correct levels for growing pups.
Which one would you choose just by going by the information listed on each site? I wouldn't go with TOTW.

Human grade vitamin C should be started at 500mg a day and over a week time you can up it to 2000mg split between meals. It can be hard on the gut so slow introduction is important. Don't use EsterC for a pup, it contains calcium as well.
 

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I'm not sure why she would think raw has any thing to do with Pano..... I will try vitiam C do they make it for dogs? Or human form ok? He is lean very fit. But he has long legs hug paws! But the vet said his weight it perfect. I dont think he looks abnormaly long legged though. I did have Otto also on Wellness Core before changing to TOTW. So Wellness Super 5 mix and Orijen? Does anyone feed this? How is your dog doing on it?
Wellness Core and TOTW both have calcium percentages over 2%. Both are not appropriate for a growing large breed puppy no matter what the TOTW website says. They're just going by what AAFCO says is safe. AAFCO are the same people that says it's safe to feed unnamed "animal" meats to dogs, so take their standards for what they're worth... :poop:
Wellness Super 5 Mix and Orijen LBP are much better choices than what you're currently on and definitely better than science diet. I'd give either of those a shot. Orijen LBP being my first choice. I feed the adult formula to my 2 year old and it's a great food.
 

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My opinion is that GENETICS plays the largest part in if a pup gets Pano or not.

I have raised several GSD puppies over the years, some got it and some didn't.

I believe if they are going to get it, it doesn't matter WHAT you feed them. (Or don't feed them.)

For instance Siren had it a few times, a LOT of her 1/2 siblings (same sire) have gotten it too and the vast majority are fed different diets from eachother. (Meaning some were on a regular "adult" kibble, some got an ALS kibble, some on grain free kibble and others on raw.)
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I'm going to have to read a little more on the Orjien LBP and see how that goes. So how long should I keep him on the LBP Orjien? Is AAFCO really creditable? Do they have a website?
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I really wish I could educate my self better on what is good for him and what isn't. This way I know what to look for. I want to make sure I give him the best. Just like all of us what to whats best for our dogs. :)
 

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I did have Otto also on Wellness Core before changing to TOTW. So Wellness Super 5 mix and Orijen? Does anyone feed this? How is your dog doing on it?
did you happen to see this on the Wellness website regarding Wellness Core?


I have heard that some of these high protein diets can’t be fed to large breed puppies. Why?
  • Research has shown that large breed puppies should not be fed a diet that is over 1.5% Calcium or they run a significant risk of developing bone abnormalities. Many of the high protein diets on the market today are well in excess of 1.5% Calcium. We do not recommend any large breed puppies be fed our CORE dog diets, or any of the other high protein diets on the market today. In fact, we would conservatively say that puppies in general should not feed higher protein diets that exceed 1.5% Calcium. Again, this is why we feature a maintenance claim and promote the diet for dogs over 1 year in age.
note that TOTW has pretty much the same Ca levels as Core
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Wow, Now I feel like this is my fault. :cry: I need to switch! Now is the best time to do so. Oh my I just feel really bad...:help:
 

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did you happen to see this on the Wellness website regarding Wellness Core?


I have heard that some of these high protein diets can’t be fed to large breed puppies. Why?
  • Research has shown that large breed puppies should not be fed a diet that is over 1.5% Calcium or they run a significant risk of developing bone abnormalities. Many of the high protein diets on the market today are well in excess of 1.5% Calcium. We do not recommend any large breed puppies be fed our CORE dog diets, or any of the other high protein diets on the market today. In fact, we would conservatively say that puppies in general should not feed higher protein diets that exceed 1.5% Calcium. Again, this is why we feature a maintenance claim and promote the diet for dogs over 1 year in age.
note that TOTW has pretty much the same Ca levels as Core
Nice post.

This is pretty responsible of Wellness to actually tell potential customers NOT to feed their food because it isn't safe for puppies. They're risking potential profits by doing this, but at least they're acknowledging that their core formulas should not be fed to young large breed pups even though AAFCO says it's ok.
 

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My Jake is having a bout of Pano and he has been fed Acana Pacifica until last month....and I switched to TOTW. Are you telling me that in 4 weeks it affected his system he has Pano?

I agree it has to genetics or at least primarily so because years ago before all the science went into making kibble I don't recall all the LB puppies limping.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Otto has been on TOTW for almost two and a half months. I don't his diet of TOTW and Ras has caused this. Genetices is a possibility? But I don't know to much about this and I'am not a vet. But I will read more into this. I really like TOTW but if it could be contributing to make the PANO worst then I need to change. This is all new and different to me. After looking into Orijen-----> What do you think? :confused:

GUARANTEED ANALYSISCrude Protein (min.)40.0%Crude Fat (min.)16.0%Crude Fiber (max.)3.0%Moisture (max.)10.0%Calcium (min.)1.5%Calcium (max.)1.7%Phosphorus (min.)1.1%Phosphorus (max.)1.3%Omega-6 (min.)2.6%Omega-3 (min.)
DHA
EPA1.0%
0.6%
0.3%Carbohydrate (max.)20.0%Glucosamine (min.)1400 mg/kgChondroitin (min.)1200 mg/kgMicroorganisms (min.)120M cfu/kg
Orijen Large Breed Puppy

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Average Customer Rating: 4.95 out of 5
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Orijen Large Breed Puppy grain-free formula is unlike any other puppy food and is guaranteed to help your large-sized puppy grow up bright, healthy and strong. Orijen Large Breed Puppy is bursting with the protein-packed human-grade meats (minimum 70%) that your growing puppy needs—and none of the grains or carbohydrates that are biologically inappropriate to him. By utilizing special low-ash chicken and fish ingredients, Orijen Large Breed Puppy avoids the high ash levels—and subsequently elevated calcium and phosphorus—that are a common concern for large breed puppy owners on high-protein diets.

Orijen Large Breed Puppy formula is available in 15.4 lb., and 29.7 lb. bags.

Orijen Large Breed Puppy Ingredients:
Boneless chicken, chicken meal, turkey meal, russet potato, boneless salmon (a natural source of DHA and EPA), herring meal, sweet potato, peas, boneless lake whitefish, boneless walleye, chicken fat (naturally preserved with vitamin E and citric acid), chicken liver, salmon meal, boneless turkey, fresh whole eggs, boneless herring, sun-cured alfalfa, salmon oil, chicory root, dehydrated organic kelp, pumpkin, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, saskatoon berries, black currants, choline chloride, psyllium, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile flowers, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, sea salt, vitamin supplements (vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, vitamin C, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, vitamin B5, vitamin B6, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12), mineral supplements (zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium), dried Lactobacillus acidophilus product, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product.

Orijen Large Breed Puppy Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein (min.) ................... 40 %
Crude Fat (min.) ........................ 16 %
Crude Fiber (max.) .................... 3.0 %
Moisture (max.) ......................... 10 %
Calcium (min./max.) ............. 1.5/1.7 %
Phosphorus (min./max.) ........ 1.1/1.3 %
* Omega-6 (min.) ..................... 2.6 %
* Omega-3 (min.) ..................... 1.0 %
DHA/EPA ............................ 0.6/0.3 %
* Carbohydrate (NFE) ................. 20 %
* Glucosamine (min.) ......... 1400 mg/kg
* Chondroitin (min.) ........... 1200 mg/kg
* Microorganisms ............. 120 M cfu/kg
* Not recognized as an essential nutrient by AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profiles.


GUARANTEED ANALYSISCrude Protein (min.)40.0%Crude Fat (min.)16.0%Crude Fiber (max.)3.0%Moisture (max.)10.0%Calcium (min.)1.5%Calcium (max.)1.7%Phosphorus (min.)1.1%Phosphorus (max.)1.3%Omega-6 (min.)2.6%Omega-3 (min.)
DHA
EPA1.0%
0.6%
0.3%Carbohydrate (max.)20.0%Glucosamine (min.)1400 mg/kgChondroitin (min.)1200 mg/kgMicroorganisms (min.)120M cfu/kg
 

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Wellness LB puppy is very similar....

I like TOTW and frankly if I need to switch I wouldn't know where to begin, he is grain sensitive and I like the idea of not feeding him tons of fillers. Jake will be 9 months tomorrow.
 

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The other point is what about all the puppies out there who are fed RAW? Why isn't there an overwhelming number of those having bouts of Pano?
I too am trying to understand this....TOTW is the first food that Jake's skin/coat is good, his ear quit itching and his stool IS PERFECT.
 
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