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I have a question. First, let me say I'm probably not describing the GSDs I'm about to ask about correctly. The "European" GSDs are the working dogs and the german showline dogs. The only major line I am not asking about is the American German Shepherd dog, but this question could apply to them to.

The question is: How bad is the german shepherd gene pool at this moment? I do remember a big thread about it. And breeders are already crossing working lines and west german show lines. Is crossing the showlines and the working lines the future? Is that a result of the gene pool or is that something else?

I'm not asking you give me or the people on the board every little detail without letting them find it themselves, all I am asking for is a general answer. It could be:

IMO, the gene pool DOES NOT justify crossing types.

You could just say that and that's it if you like. I'm just asking for a general answer.
 

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I don't have an answer to your question .

My motto is, a good dog is a good dog doesn't matter what lines, I don't care if they are crossed a good dog is STILL a good dog:)
 

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It's like most pools, I would guess.

Might look clean overall, but there might be some 'warm' spots (if you catch my drift) and some dirt patches that could be brushed off the bottom. Maybe some leaves and pine needles that could be scraped off the top.... But if you swim around long enough, you'll find just the right spot.
 

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I have a question. First, let me say I'm probably not describing the GSDs I'm about to ask about correctly. The "European" GSDs are the working dogs and the german showline dogs. The only major line I am not asking about is the American German Shepherd dog, but this question could apply to them to.

The question is: How bad is the german shepherd gene pool at this moment? I do remember a big thread about it. And breeders are already crossing working lines and west german show lines. Is crossing the showlines and the working lines the future? Is that a result of the gene pool or is that something else?

I'm not asking you give me or the people on the board every little detail without letting them find it themselves, all I am asking for is a general answer. It could be:

IMO, the gene pool DOES NOT justify crossing types.

You could just say that and that's it if you like. I'm just asking for a general answer.

In what way do you mean bad? Healthwise or temperment? I have a West German Showline/Workingline mix. He is not imported, but bread in the US, but has West German lines. I'm not sure if dogs like mine are what your refering to or if it's European bred dogs that are imported. I guess in short, what jumps out at you? I'm just curious.

I can tell you with my dog, he is a new venture in GSDs for me. He is totally different from other past GSDs I've owned. His prey drive is incredibly high, he seems highly intelligent, and seems as stable as a 7 month old pup can be. He can be abit stubborn. Something has seemed to click lately with him and has become much more confident in himself. He has good hips, great teeth, generally healthy young man full of energy. He has his moments though, but most of this is my fault with lack of consistent training. Like I said this dog is high high drive and demands training. He seems to thrive on it.

If there is any particulars your looking for just ask me. I can offer his pedigree also. There is a thread on it in the predigree section but I can post it here if you want. Really in the end, I'm just happy with him so far. It's just up to me to keep up with him. I think he'll turn out to be a well balanced dog when all said and done.
 

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Prior to Lance of Fran-Jo and Canto vd Wienerau, German, American, show, and working dogs were all similar in type and dogs such as Bernd Lierberg went VA, excelled in working trials, and also became an American Select Champion ROM!
 

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American bloodlines are ruined. European showlines are nearly ruined. Crossing the two would not improve things. The breed needs to be cross bred with quality Malinois and workingline breeders need to breed for more than just sport and evaluate potential breeding stock accordingly. I am speaking in regard to the breed as a true working dog such as in a police or military applications and not as a pet. The breed should have never been bred for pets.
 

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I'm always intrigued by the" breed to a Malinois" comments. Considering your statement concerning what a mess the breed is, what makes you think the people who contributed to the demise would ever be able to successfully do such a breeding?
What are you thinking the Malinois will add that is missing from the working line dogs ? I say working lines because I could not even imagine why anyone would breed a Mal to the other lines.



Disclaimer: My comments have nothing to do with whether I like Malinois. I have seen some I really do like..
 

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The breed should have never been bred for pets.
Yes, and SchH should have never been promoted as a weekend activity for everyone and anyone who had a dog. The membership drive for clubs and the mentality that has led to every dog being helped to obtain a title vs leaving SchH as something that eliminated the dogs who could not do it and were not suited for breeding, has been a major factor in what has taken place.
The SV and many others who did not care enough to preserve the temperament, have been behind a long term goal of changing the mentality of the people participating. The way things are conducted now is vastly different than it used to be and so are the dogs.
 

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I am speaking in regard to the breed as a true working dog such as in a police or military applications and not as a pet. The breed should have never been bred for pets.
The breed standard defines the dog. They should only be breed to the breed standard which includes working and "pets".

FCI Character:
"The German Shepherd Dog must be well-balanced (with strong nerves) in terms of character, self-assured, absolutely natural and (except for a stimulated situation) good-natured as well as attentive and willing to please. He must possess instinctive behaviour, resilience and self-assurance in order to be suitable as a companion, guard, protection, service and herding dog. "


AKC excerpt from Temperament:
"It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand."
 

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Anne,
I have no faith that the showline people and SV would be able to successfully crossbred with Mals to improve the breed, but various individuals could and do, moreso in Europe than the U.S. While Mals can have nerve issues, some lines have rock solid nerves, which is something I think the GSD workinglines is losing, and the intensity of the drive is much higher and doesn't easily lower with corrections. With a lot of decent to good workingline GSDs, you still have to work on building drive, where with a high drive Malinois, there is no need to build drive. Also, the GSD is plagued with health problems that might be reduced by cross breeding to Mals who haven't been as ruined by being bred as pets. A lot of the genetics of the really good GSDs have been lost and I believe originally, the GSD and Malinois were much more similar than they are today.Another reason is lack of hunt drive. A lot of workingline GSDs have good prey drive, but lack hunt drive because it isn't required for schH and that is the sport the dog is built on. Also, Malinois could help improve athleticism and agility in the breed.
Flyaway, I think the standard should be more concise and realistic, such as the breed should be good with children and the family and suspicious of strangers.
 

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So Chip. You want a Malshep or a Shepinois.

You know what will happen, they will become the newest, most popular breed and teenage girls will buy them like crazy and then wellllll you know what happens next.:)
 

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yes Vandal --- and we have an aging population so we are loosing the core of decoys and breeders who knew it "back then" . That aging population that is vacating the sport is not being replaced by the same numbers of younger kids.
When they are , then the sport is tailored to them .
Tests are being made politically correct .

The reasons for people being in sport are different --- commercial reasons promotion / sales . Go to a regional trials and see two or three kennels participating in conformation -- by sheer numbers one will win - and then promote best-in . That was not the case when I was running around getting my VP's -- there were lots of breeders competing , lots of dogs, lots of variety . How do you make any advances when the other two groups that placed 2 and 3 , are your left sock to your right sock ? Same genetics.

A cranky old German decoy said to me -- there are people in the sport that are not there for the dog , they are there for their ego . He said some of them do not even like dogs. The dogs, the sport are a means to an end . The art of understanding a dog , and as a partner building that dog don't exist anymore. The relationship is adversarial from the start. The young pup, young dog is smashed against some test , and abandoned , instead of put into a rewarding relationship and allowing for maturity. That affects the kind of pups you would produce to meet this market . (no thanks) , or if the dog is crazy , (no thanks).

The SV has been on a mission to get rid of that irritant , the working people , when they separated the BSZ from the BSP -- and the working police trials . I have long said that the breed will be best served by a non-SV country .
 

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"Yes, and SchH should have never been promoted as a weekend activity for everyone and anyone who had a dog."

things have changed so much. Before, breeding for sport was not an end goal. Some vocation , herding, guarding, searching , guiding was and that ensured the over all utility and versatility , the balance . The talented dog would go to sport as a competitive recreation . Not as the end goal - which is taking over breeding selection as much as specialization in GSD bred for show . Where is the total dog , the real dog .
 

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While Mals can have nerve issues, some lines have rock solid nerves, which is something I think the GSD workinglines is losing, and the intensity of the drive is much higher and doesn't easily lower with corrections. With a lot of decent to good workingline GSDs, you still have to work on building drive, where with a high drive Malinois, there is no need to build drive.
I haven't seen too many modern working lines lacking drive. They may lack some of the genetic traits they need to be good workers however, including nerves and a level of toughness. So, we agree there. It would not occur to me to look to at the Malinois breed to improve nerves. Sorry, there are just as many or more Mals with bad nerves as GSDs. If people would simply learn to understand how to combine the existing bloodlines, things could be changed but IMO, too many people are breeding now by simply looking at paper and without working the dogs. If they understood what good nerves actually were and bred with the nerve strength way at the top of the list, that would make a huge difference. Unfortunately, nerve strength is less necessary in IPO. The SV made sure of that. There are still dogs out there who have those nerves but again, while I have seen and worked nice Mals, I have never seen one that behaved as a really great GSD.

Also, what you said about adding drive,(so the dogs would somehow be more resilient), is what seems to be the formula most working line breeders are using now and is the source of the problem that has become gradually more apparent over the last decade. While drive is part of it, since the dog would need to get drive satisfaction in the work to desire to continue doing it, I think there are other factors involved.
What I see most often now is the dogs are not worked in the proper drive. This might be what you are referring to when you say they need their drive built up. When a dog is working for a ball in obedience vs having the genetics that enable the dog to willingly work as a team , yes you do need to build that ball drive. I rarely work on building drive, it just is not necessary but I also work my dog using the correct drives for each phase. In protection the idea used to be to tap into the protective instinct and fight drive. It was not simply about prey drive or playing. Prey drive is certainly a part of it but prey drive will extinguish, so, the other aspects must be brought out.

There is a relatively new method of working dogs in SchH or rather, IPO. Trainers seem to spend the first year of the dog's life building drive and interest in biting the "prey item". This is "necessary" because of how the dogs are worked nowadays. It has indeed become more of a game but I also have to say when I have worked some of these dogs who have been worked in the wrong drive, some of them still have what we used to look for. It is just not brought out of the dogs most of the time. Last year I worked a dog who was worked by his owner. My first impression of the dog was not good and that is putting it mildly. It took some weeks and months to train that dog out of the confusion and the result, even surprised me. He had it in there , buried under all the bad work and I had to dig to bring it out.
No, not everyone is teaching their dogs as I just said but it is very difficult to find a helper who is capable or willing to work a GSD the way they were bred to be worked. The mentality now seems to teach people new to the sport that you are simply a "sparring partner" and are teaching the dog karate. That thinking makes their behavior as the helper, unnatural. The dogs don't understand it. The fight drive is not brought up in the dog and they are "rewarded" with the sleeve. Telling yourself the sleeve is a reward leads to bad protection training, so does working your own dog and so many other things that are common now.

SchH saved the breed for so many years and is the reason there are dogs who are capable of working in other fields, so I am not bashing it. I loved training in SchH but it is now about impossible to find a place to actually train the way I like and the way that shows me who my dog is. I do hope people will start to wake up and save it, before it is gone....taking the breed with it.
 

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:thumbup: as usual.
 

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yes yes and yes . please Blitzkrieg do read what Vandal said and think about it. that is exactly what I tried to explain and demonstrate when we met in person , and what I said to you on the "Car" thread about your pup Taz . The pedigree has this potential. I know , I've owned and worked and used many parts of the pedigree including direct Bronson offspring.
Build the relationship , not the drive. Too much prey craziness is going to make a mess, or show the dog in a light which isn't fair as it does not bring the dog to best potential. This, even though the pup you have has nothing to do with me -- just an interest to see a good pup become a good dog --
for the first year I wouldn't do bite work --- let that come from fight and deep core character.

some clubs can't and won't learn new -
 

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like this aggression brought out by prey "the pup she is only 3 months so who knows what she will become. However, she is currently showing lots of prey and sharpness. The TD has already indicated that if she continues developing this way real aggression will not be an issue and not something we will have to work to bring out. The main focus right now is prey and confidence building."
 

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I'm always intrigued by the" breed to a Malinois" comments. Considering your statement concerning what a mess the breed is, what makes you think the people who contributed to the demise would ever be able to successfully do such a breeding?
What are you thinking the Malinois will add that is missing from the working line dogs ? I say working lines because I could not even imagine why anyone would breed a Mal to the other lines.



Disclaimer: My comments have nothing to do with whether I like Malinois. I have seen some I really do like..
I have the same question

Yes, and SchH should have never been promoted as a weekend activity for everyone and anyone who had a dog.

I agree and disagree. I don't mind that it has tried to bring more people into the sport. I think doing just OB or just tracking titles are a good idea or ob and protection to get different levels for those that can.

as with everything, the problem is still in the people themselves. If people were honest with what they have and in dealing with others we wouldn't have any of these problems.

I don't mind that SchH became a sport, that was inevitable. Humans compete, in everything :) We can debate the merits of different exercises etc, i have changes I'd like, but not drastic ones. Or maybe they are depending on who you ask :)

But regardless, a fairly done Trial is still a pretty decent test. I think the problem is, too many people forget that the judge was nice to them that day or their own club helper "helped" their dog in the trial somehow. Remember, I said a fair trial.

We learn about our dogs in training. There is so much you can see in a dog with just a man, a sleeve and a stick. I can see what should be passed on and what shouldn't. So can most everyone else. BUT, they have so and so in their pedigree and they want to preserve the lines. WTF is that all about, your dog isn't even mediocre, why preserve those qualities??

Any fairly decent dog should be able to pass a trial, and I know it was started as a breed test, but it doesn't bother me it has evolved past being just that. I'm fine with it being a sport and a way to trial against another team and see who "wins"

But people need to be much more honest about what's in a dog and what isn't. I know many more people that put more stock in a pedigree and a leniently judged trial than all the weaknesses evident every day in training in their stud dog or brood bitch.

That part is sad. When your dog will only come into a blind because the helper has invited him in every day for 3 years, and still he needs an invitation to come in a barkon trial day, and barely holds on for an escape bite and gets baby hits so he doesn't come off in the re-attack, I don't care if Neck von der Maineiche is "X" generations back. He's obviously not influencing the dog YOU have very much :) But hey, he's sired 3 crappy litters already. That scenerio happens far more often than it should.

A cranky old German decoy said to me -- there are people in the sport that are not there for the dog , they are there for their ego . He said some of them do not even like dogs. The dogs, the sport are a means to an end . The art of understanding a dog , and as a partner building that dog don't exist anymore. The relationship is adversarial from the start. The young pup, young dog is smashed against some test , and abandoned , instead of put into a rewarding relationship and allowing for maturity. That affects the kind of pups you would produce to meet this market .
he may have been cranky, but he sounds pretty smart :)
 
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