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Discussion Starter #1
I'm in the process of finding and bringing home a pup that will suit my desires to title in IPO I and UD, but the more I read into the training the more I put myself in a tizzy. UD is a bit more "relaxed" in that you're allowed to use body gestures to reinforce certain commands, but in the obedience of IPO you are faulted for it.

Has anyone managed to title in both without damaging the training of the other discipline? I don't want to confuse my dog with learning both English and German commands as a young pup, but the goal is to begin evaluating/training in IPO around 4-5 months and then begin the CKC obedience at 6 months. I absolutely adore how obedience creates a strong working relationship between owner and dog, so the more I can work with my dog the happier I'll be. I'm hoping to do some agility just for fun on the side when the pup is older, too, just to keep things fun and to give some enjoyable mental and physical exercise.
 

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Just because a venue allows you to give extra signals doesn't mean you have to. Like, you can talk in rally but not in OB, so if you plan to go on to traditional obedience you can never talk in rally or phase it out to the point you are ready to do regular OB. you can talk in rally but you don't have to.

Sometimes you can go one way and not the other. Like, I am always told if you want to do AKC Tracking and schutzhund tracking, train schutzhund first. Because schutzhund is a different style of tracking and while you could pass AKC tracking with a schutzhund dog in wouldn't go the other way---or I don't know what the disqualifications are in schutzhund it might just be a crappy score, because AKC is pass or fail and they don't fail for air scenting for instance.

So if you train for the more strict venue, you should be able to compete in any of the venues you want.
 

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I've always heard to train for Schutzhund first since it is more demanding. I did do an AKC obedience class as a dog to dog socializing class for my big boy. He was about 18 months at the time. He did well but at the graduation "trial" he lost points because I messed up between the two disciplines. For instance, returning to the dog from a stay, in AKC I was supposed to go around the dog's back to the start position. Not so in IPO / Schutzhund. Ooops, I defaulted to my IPO training.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I was hoping you would chime in! That's good to know. I definitely want to start with the SCHH/IPO side of things because it would be my main focus. But overall I do love obedience myself, so the more I can do it the better as long as it isn't at the expense of my dog become confused and damaging their previous training.

I just worry about the language difference. The plan is to start out with English so that the average person could make a behavioural request (in-laws, for example), whereas myself or my partner would probably reinforce more German - possibly switching back and forth to test comprehension. I'm just not sure when it's best to introduce the IPO commands, though I'm sure the local club would help with that.
 

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Hakki started his training in German and then switched over to English when he was 1-1/2 years old. I use both languages on a regular basis.
 

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There is no reason why you can not cross train. Sound training on a sound dog with the right temperament and drives will be able to do both without conflict. :) You will need to make some slight changes in each venue, but nothing major that will cause issues with your dog.
 

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"UD is a bit more "relaxed" in that you're allowed to use body gestures to reinforce certain commands"

oh no it's not - and there are no extra commands or body gestures allowed -- you can use them but you will be docked or fail

there is more pressure in the CD to UD plus circuit . Everytime I watch a trial it looks like those dogs are going to the chopping block . They look so lifeless and draggy .
 

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Really? I thought with the "Wait" command they were still allowed to use their hand in front of the face without deduction. That's at least what it looked like to me from what I've seen people train here in town and what I've seen online. That's really interesting to know then and I'll keep it in mind.

Definitely don't want my dog to ever look lifeless and draggy during any training though. Why do you think they get that way in comparison to IPO?

And I'm glad to hear from you, Lisa, that cross training is possible with a sound dog. Coming into a working line pup, I'm trying not to set myself up for miserable failure the first time around. Would you recommend sticking with just one language, and once the behaviour has a good foundation to start using the other? For example, having them reliably sit without a lure, but then essentially re-teach with the additions language by reintroducing the lure? Or simply place the new language ahead of the previously used one almost like a secondary marker?
 

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If you train your dog for IPO and you can do the BH then you will have no problem doing CKC. Many people who train in IPO also title in AKC/CKC
 

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Ahhh, that makes much more sense! I tried reading the information provided by the CKC on it, but that site is a bit easier to digest with its format. Thanks for the resource.
 

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Really? I thought with the "Wait" command they were still allowed to use their hand in front of the face without deduction. That's at least what it looked like to me from what I've seen people train here in town and what I've seen online. That's really interesting to know then and I'll keep it in mind.

Definitely don't want my dog to ever look lifeless and draggy during any training though. Why do you think they get that way in comparison to IPO?

And I'm glad to hear from you, Lisa, that cross training is possible with a sound dog. Coming into a working line pup, I'm trying not to set myself up for miserable failure the first time around. Would you recommend sticking with just one language, and once the behaviour has a good foundation to start using the other? For example, having them reliably sit without a lure, but then essentially re-teach with the additions language by reintroducing the lure? Or simply place the new language ahead of the previously used one almost like a secondary marker?

If your dog is happy and focused it shouldn't look draggy or lifeless at all. Rally skills are easier than IPO skills from what little I have seen but the dogs still like working with you. That's a part of what judges look for.
I stick with one language for precise actions and another for casual ones. Casual as in "I know it won't be strictly reinforced". An example is the heal command. Fuss means "you must be at my left side and looking up at me, no glancing around or moving forward or falling back". Come Along or Come Come is my loose leash command. It means "you can be-bop around so long as you aren't dragging me by the leash". Here means run to me and sit down facing me until released. Home means run to the door of the house, straight and fast or willy-nilly, just get to the door. When I did some AKC work I used the German command words.

Commands like No Feeding the Dogs Out of the Fridge are for my hubby.
 

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That's a great way to put it, car2ner. I think I'll try to focus on using the German commands for the serious aspects of training, and probably use English and loose interpretations for casual training. Maybe start with the German commands to make it easier to transition into IPO so there's a language familiarity, but only use it when we're doing short, focused training. When we're having fun and just casually interacting I'll use English.

I'm definitely over thinking things, but I'm terribly excited and I like to have some form of game plan. It's also probably a bad habit from all of the lesson planning from teaching too, haha.
 

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I spent many a weekend in clammy arenas doing ring steward and matches - thinking maybe of getting a judges certificate .

fuss and heel mean the same thing -- on the left in unison with the handler.

I wouldn't use come along or come come -- keep that for one thing COME - smartly and directly return to me and present yourself in front till I give you another command.

for casual walks I say - let's go !
 

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Discussion Starter #15
That's a really good point that I completely overlooked.
 

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For my dogs fuss and heel are not the same to them. I have different criteria and there is no confusion for the dogs. In addition, I never use the word "come" in formal obedience, but use plenty of variations of that to mean "come and stop near me." It is all in how you train and what works best for you and your dog. No one way is right. I find the dual commands (obedience vs casual) work best for me.
 

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That's a great way to put it, car2ner. I think I'll try to focus on using the German commands for the serious aspects of training, and probably use English and loose interpretations for casual training. Maybe start with the German commands to make it easier to transition into IPO so there's a language familiarity, but only use it when we're doing short, focused training. When we're having fun and just casually interacting I'll use English.

I'm definitely over thinking things, but I'm terribly excited and I like to have some form of game plan. It's also probably a bad habit from all of the lesson planning from teaching too, haha.
Actually have a plan is an excellent thing. More of use should do that. When I am training I try to focus on three skills. I often play music and work on one skill throughout a song. That is how I personally keep from over working or under working a skill. And if the song is upbeat it helps my attitude which in turn helps my dogs. Then if we have more time and energy I might throw in another skill.

As far as using "come come" or "come along" the casual command is come. I just get sing-songy when playing around on neighborhood or forest walks. And if I am truly goofing around it is "kommst Sie her" which I am sure is really grammatically incorrect. The dogs don't care. The important thing is to not talk to the dogs unless you want their attention. Then you can say, "whatcha doing big head" and they'll turn to look at you.

If I need an instant no nonsense return to front I use the German here. Accent on the first E, held a bit longer.
 

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for the obedience ring, it doesn't matter if you give the commands in Klingon as long as it's a single word or gesture. You can use german in the obedience ring and no one will think twice.

I use "front" for obedience. I use "here" for come back toward me when off-leash walking
 
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