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Exellent!!! Love to see your dogs in the videos - so happy and snappy and precise (even with the handler help and all. :))
 

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Oooh, great topic!!! Thanks for the hard work you are putting into these Ashley!

3:59 trick is amazing!
 

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Love it, as usual! I really enjoy these.

Great job! Keep them coming..
 

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Ah-ha!

Wonderful explanation and something I personally struggle with.

In Dressage I was trained to prepare my mount with subtle cues for the next movement such as the half-halt, or looking in the direction of the turn just before executing the turn. The horses felt the slight shifts in weight and responded accordingly. These were very subtle but effective!

I struggled with why this isn't allowed in IPO, not to mention feeling frustrated as I was so used to communicating to my horses and previous dogs this way.

My trainer has been catching me at this and warning me but I didn't have the 'big picture'.

Thanks so much, love these videos!
 

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Shared on multiple pages on FB and people picked it up from there.

excellent points on recognizing handler help. That is why it is critical to have a good training dircetor that will catch it, correct it and explain it. It is better to know the rules, the impact and the deductions at the get go than make the mistakes in the BH or IPO1 and then spend more time fixing it.
 

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Ah-ha!

Wonderful explanation and something I personally struggle with.

In Dressage I was trained to prepare my mount with subtle cues for the next movement such as the half-halt, or looking in the direction of the turn just before executing the turn. The horses felt the slight shifts in weight and responded accordingly. These were very subtle but effective!

I struggled with why this isn't allowed in IPO, not to mention feeling frustrated as I was so used to communicating to my horses and previous dogs this way.

My trainer has been catching me at this and warning me but I didn't have the 'big picture'.

Thanks so much, love these videos!
I understand that completely... I have the same issue here.

I did eventing and was on the Dressage team back in college. When I got into training in IPO, it was SO hard for me to understand that I could not cue my dog, or help in any way.... only words. The horse world is much different when it comes to "handler help"...

I still struggle with it. Especially with the puppy... which is gaining me some bad habits!! :rolleyes:
 

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Thanks for posting this! I'm not going crazy! :D

I'd been heavily involved in horses from 1976 until a couple of years ago.

My poor trainer (who is not a horse person) doesn't get why I'm still stuck on some of these things, old habits and all, 'Whaddya mean I can't look in the direction I want my dog to go?' LOL!

He also says 'pattern training' is a no-no but in reading Sheila Booth's book "Schutzhund Obedience, Training in Drive" she explains her reasoning why it's O.K.

I'm going to be good though and keep working at it!


I understand that completely... I have the same issue here.

I did eventing and was on the Dressage team back in college. When I got into training in IPO, it was SO hard for me to understand that I could not cue my dog, or help in any way.... only words. The horse world is much different when it comes to "handler help"...

I still struggle with it. Especially with the puppy... which is gaining me some bad habits!! :rolleyes:
 

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Thanks for posting this! I'm not going crazy! :D

I'd been heavily involved in horses from 1976 until a couple of years ago.

My poor trainer (who is not a horse person) doesn't get why I'm still stuck on some of these things, old habits and all, 'Whaddya mean I can't look in the direction I want my dog to go?' LOL!

He also says 'pattern training' is a no-no but in reading Sheila Booth's book "Schutzhund Obedience, Training in Drive" she explains her reasoning why it's O.K.

I'm going to be good though and keep working at it!
Here too. I'm 24 and have been riding since I was 3 1/2. I sold my last horse what will be 2 years ago this summer. I've dabbled in all different disciplines... and it's the same for all. Help the horse with your aids. Eyes, shoulders, hands, hips, upper/lower legs, and heels. When jumping... Look to the direction of your next jump.... let the horse know where you want them to go next.... this gives you your lead change and tight turns coming off the jump. Dressage, is the same... lots and lots of "handler help".

I'm notorious for looking where I want them to go... or when going into a down/sit in motion, my hand moves to "help" the dog. I know I shouldn't, and I try not to, but it's such a habit. With Duke I had to be very animated to get him to work "up" and not flat like he is naturally. And with the puppy, you help them to understand when they are young..

Like you, I have a trainer who is not a horse person either. So for him, he just doesn't get why it's so ingrained in my head.

Another problem I have from coming from the horse training first is.... because I dealt with a lot of high energy horses (OTTB, Warmbloods, horses that were giving owners issues, and rescued mustangs), It was very hard for me to be high energy and silly when training the dogs. Back with the horses, I had to have very quiet energy, very calming, and relaxing. That's been my hardest lesson to learn.... Still find myself going "flat" as my trainer says. lol. Like we all say out at class.... we are there for handler training more then dog training. :rolleyes:
 

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Oh yeah, I'm so with you on the 'energy' aspect too. I like the OTTB ponies too, poor man's dressage horse. Though some of them would be referred to as 'unstable' in their temperament! LOL! So pony, did you wake up in the same reality today? :crazy: (warmbloods are a mixed bag in my experience, some hot some not)

I have another horsie friend who got into GSDs and training (thanks to my corrupting influence hehehe) anyhoo....she has the same problems with the energy, she's very steady and calm and her dog isn't really a higher drive type. It ends up working against her.

It's so hard because these habits do become so ingrained over the years (and years and years...not that I'm old or anything ...ahem.... :blush: )


Here too. I'm 24 and have been riding since I was 3 1/2. I sold my last horse what will be 2 years ago this summer. I've dabbled in all different disciplines... and it's the same for all. Help the horse with your aids. Eyes, shoulders, hands, hips, upper/lower legs, and heels. When jumping... Look to the direction of your next jump.... let the horse know where you want them to go next.... this gives you your lead change and tight turns coming off the jump. Dressage, is the same... lots and lots of "handler help".

I'm notorious for looking where I want them to go... or when going into a down/sit in motion, my hand moves to "help" the dog. I know I shouldn't, and I try not to, but it's such a habit. With Duke I had to be very animated to get him to work "up" and not flat like he is naturally. And with the puppy, you help them to understand when they are young..

Like you, I have a trainer who is not a horse person either. So for him, he just doesn't get why it's so ingrained in my head.

Another problem I have from coming from the horse training first is.... because I dealt with a lot of high energy horses (OTTB, Warmbloods, horses that were giving owners issues, and rescued mustangs), It was very hard for me to be high energy and silly when training the dogs. Back with the horses, I had to have very quiet energy, very calming, and relaxing. That's been my hardest lesson to learn.... Still find myself going "flat" as my trainer says. lol. Like we all say out at class.... we are there for handler training more then dog training. :rolleyes:
 

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Oh yeah, I'm so with you on the 'energy' aspect too. I like the OTTB ponies too, poor man's dressage horse. Though some of them would be referred to as 'unstable' in their temperament! LOL! So pony, did you wake up in the same reality today? :crazy: (warmbloods are a mixed bag in my experience, some hot some not)

I have another horsie friend who got into GSDs and training (thanks to my corrupting influence hehehe) anyhoo....she has the same problems with the energy, she's very steady and calm and her dog isn't really a higher drive type. It ends up working against her.

It's so hard because these habits do become so ingrained over the years (and years and years...not that I'm old or anything ...ahem.... :blush: )
Haha! Oh yeah. Some of the best horses I've had have been OTTBs. I like crazy... I'm a magnet for it. I can't remember a normal animal I've had. All my horses have been nuts, and so have all my dogs! :crazy: Makes life exciting. BUT, that energy and "up" way of training gets me in trouble ALL the time with IPO. It' really hard to develop that again.

I'm getting better at it.... but, it's really hard to change something so heavily ingrained. :rolleyes: eventually I'll get it! Good to hear I'm not the only one. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #13
We always encourage people to be calm with the dogs. Working dogs should have lots of energy, the trainer has to contain it and turn it into something useful.

There should be as little energy as possible going in with maximum energy coming out.

I was actually thinking about doing an episode on energy investment in training with regards to helpers specifically.
 

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We always encourage people to be calm with the dogs. Working dogs should have lots of energy, the trainer has to contain it and turn it into something useful.

There should be as little energy as possible going in with maximum energy coming out.

I was actually thinking about doing an episode on energy investment in training with regards to helpers specifically.
I agree to a point, and not all of us have all working dogs.

My WGSL is very flat in OB. If I have little energy and am just calmly going around.... he will completely lose interest and go flat. If I'm upbeat and play around with him, or make fun noises.... He's actually very up, and has a blast.

My puppy is another example. She's a very stubborn, hard bitch. If I wasn't fun, and didn't have that happy fun energy... she wouldn't want anything to do with me. Now I have changed that dog from going off on her own... to running back to me to play and coming to me with all her toys. She's now very up in her OB, and is actually becoming more "flashy".

I think it depends what dog you handle. Each is an individual. Some need a very calm handler, with a very stable, quiet voice and motions. While there are others, that need that excitement to lift them up and bring out that happy bounce in their step... makes it more fun for them.

Here at training, we base it on the individual dog. Our dogs feed off our energy. If they need more pep in their step.... have fun with them, play, be exciting. If they are bouncing up and down, doing nuts.... then they need to be held back a bit. Calming, confident, quiet handler will be best. We support a lot of energy in our training, especially with dogs like my WGSL. He works just fine, and is a great dog.... but he needs more energy in his handler.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I understand that and puppies especially need lots of energy going in to get a little out, but its like the body language thing, in a trial you can't give loads of motivation. You can praise a dog between each phase, but the goal is for the dog to give all its energy for little to no input apart from the vocal commands.

From what you said regarding how you need to be with the horses, thats perfect for my dogs! :thumbup:
 

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I understand that and puppies especially need lots of energy going in to get a little out, but its like the body language thing, in a trial you can't give loads of motivation. You can praise a dog between each phase, but the goal is for the dog to give all its energy for little to no input apart from the vocal commands.

From what you said regarding how you need to be with the horses, thats perfect for my dogs! :thumbup:
Yep, I do agree with you and understand the concept completely. But, you work your way up to that with some dogs. Not all can start that way. Also, not all dogs are for trialing and competition. My WGSL is not. He will never be. He's more personal protection and we just have fun with the OB portion. He's good at it... but, can't do somethings IPO requires past BH. Which is ok with me. We have fun and that's the most important thing. There's nothing wrong with training for intense trialing (that's what my pup is for), but that's not how everyone is going to work. Which is why I stated that... going from my crazy horses that I had to be 100% quiet with, to my WGSL GSD that I had to be very up and fun with.... was a hard transition. Especially when working other dogs now that are the opposite. It's like having multiple personalities. How I train Storm (WL... training for IPO trialing), and how I train Duke (SL)... are two completely different techniques. Almost to the point of having two different personalities.
 

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Yep, I do agree with you and understand the concept completely. But, you work your way up to that with some dogs. Not all can start that way. Also, not all dogs are for trialing and competition. My WGSL is not. He will never be. He's more personal protection and we just have fun with the OB portion. He's good at it... but, can't do somethings IPO requires past BH. Which is ok with me. We have fun and that's the most important thing. There's nothing wrong with training for intense trialing (that's what my pup is for), but that's not how everyone is going to work. Which is why I stated that... going from my crazy horses that I had to be 100% quiet with, to my WGSL GSD that I had to be very up and fun with.... was a hard transition. Especially when working other dogs now that are the opposite. It's like having multiple personalities. How I train Storm (WL... training for IPO trialing), and how I train Duke (SL)... are two completely different techniques. Almost to the point of having two different personalities.
Me and dad are currently training 4 young dogs between us (plus an extra 3 12 week old pups fast growing up for dad to train, I'm glad I'm not him) specifically for competition and no two dogs are trained exactly the same - its a real nightmare getting your head into a different gear for different dogs I hate it.

To be honest between my 2 little females I much prefer working with the older one because she's less drivey and more clear headed and to go from that to the other lunatic is a huge drain on my brain.

I think to do quality training with more than 2 dogs would be too much for me, especially if they're completely different personalities.
 

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no two dogs are trained exactly the same - its a real nightmare getting your head into a different gear for different dogs I hate it.
I feel for the decoy/helpers....they have to work dogs in different phases of development, and not one dog is like the other. Transitioning between sessions is difficult when only one helper is working many dogs. I give helpers so much credit for what (you)they do!
That could be another subject for a video!
 

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Yup.

My Smitty dog is an adult rescue of dubious ancestory. While he has good energy and stamina if I'm not 'interesting' to him he totally tunes out and looses his bounce, sort-a like a child sitting quietly looking out the window pining to be playing outside with friends.

For years I could not get this dog to engage...and it was because in his world I was boring, calm, sensible. LOL!

Now that I'm learning to be more 'energetic' he's coming around and I'm looking forward to toning it down....some ...someday? ;) :D I've achieved results with him that a few years ago I never thought he would be able to do.

Ilda, while not a working line is a lot easier to get 'up' and engaged then Smitty.



Yep, I do agree with you and understand the concept completely. But, you work your way up to that with some dogs. Not all can start that way. Also, not all dogs are for trialing and competition. My WGSL is not. He will never be. He's more personal protection and we just have fun with the OB portion. He's good at it... but, can't do somethings IPO requires past BH. Which is ok with me. We have fun and that's the most important thing. There's nothing wrong with training for intense trialing (that's what my pup is for), but that's not how everyone is going to work. Which is why I stated that... going from my crazy horses that I had to be 100% quiet with, to my WGSL GSD that I had to be very up and fun with.... was a hard transition. Especially when working other dogs now that are the opposite. It's like having multiple personalities. How I train Storm (WL... training for IPO trialing), and how I train Duke (SL)... are two completely different techniques. Almost to the point of having two different personalities.
 

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LOL!!! Me too!

Well, except my last TB, he was a special pony I called him my 'reward' horse.

Enjoyed sharing with you and reading Ashley's comments too! Very informative. :)




Haha! Oh yeah. Some of the best horses I've had have been OTTBs. I like crazy... I'm a magnet for it. I can't remember a normal animal I've had. All my horses have been nuts, and so have all my dogs! :crazy: Makes life exciting. BUT, that energy and "up" way of training gets me in trouble ALL the time with IPO. It' really hard to develop that again.

I'm getting better at it.... but, it's really hard to change something so heavily ingrained. :rolleyes: eventually I'll get it! Good to hear I'm not the only one. ;)
 
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