[hunterisgreat]

I've fought this one **** near since he hit puberty. Started to have some blood in the urine. Vet ran tests.. no protein, no white blood cells (other than what one might expect from the blood leakage)... antibiotics would knock it down for about a month before it would return. Prostate infections are notorious for being incredibly hard to beat, so this cycle repeated for about a year. Hit a peak when my female had her first heat, and at the same time another dog a few doors down did. Pee'ed pure red blood during her heat one day. He was extremely frustrated (24hr whining at the ****-blocking I was dishing out.) We went in, and I held him while he was catheterized to get a clean sample... (proud of him for this... no growling, no aggression, no squirming, just looked sadly into my eyes. Now he growls at the vet and sits butt crammed into the corner... but then if I was getting a prostate exam every single time I'd probably not like the vet anymore either.) Nothing came up on that culture. So we went with a high-power anti-inflammatory. This knocked it out. 5 months of peace. A few weeks ago, he started to sample my females urine again and a club members female was in heat recently too so I'm sure he caught that on the wind.

Anywho, training Sunday he had very red urine so today was back to the vet. The trainer I was working with yesterday said he had a similar issue with a male that ended up being resolved by a low protein diet b/c his male had a kidney intolerance or stress or something like that. Both my food supplier (sort of a holistic hippy pet place... but have always been extremely knowledgeable about dog behavior and health) and Dr. said his current high protein diet is fine as the protein is derived 100% from meat (grain free). Urinalysis again showed just a little bacteria, but urine concentration was a little above average for an intact male which means the kidneys are good and functioning properly. Prostate exam showed enlarged prostate again. We are now on antibiotics and the anti inflammatory... hopefully it will knock it out but my female is gonna go into heat again at any time so I'm sure this is gonna come back soon (not breeding... so unless someone can recommend a doggy brothel then he's gonna be in the same boat again).

SO the question part... anything I should be looking for? Anyone have experiences like this? Vet says its not uncommon for an intact male, and that his is "very masculine". He's been seen by 4 vets about this at the same place, and all come to the same conclusion. Please, please, don't need any unwarranted C-bomb scares planted in my head unless you generally feel I should be fearful of this. The check requires a biopsy and being put under so I'd rather avoid that. Vet feels its highly unlikely given the response to the meds and the age (started around 2 years old)

 

[Zoeys mom]

No not cancer now but constant inflammation of an organ does increase it's risk for cancer down the road- are you against neuter?

 

[Elaine]

I've knew a number of males that had this once they hit puberty. If they were even within a couple of miles of a bitch in heat or going into heat, they would start peeing straight blood. This is a fairly common problem of intact males and the only two things that will help are to either move to an area that's a VERY long way from any bitches or neutering. The dogs that I personally knew did this, only got worse with age, until they absolutely had to be neutered. As this is a hormonal problem, I don't see how a low protein diet would help.

 

[hunterisgreat]

I've knew a number of males that had this once they hit puberty. If they were even within a couple of miles of a bitch in heat or going into heat, they would start peeing straight blood. This is a fairly common problem of intact males and the only two things that will help are to either move to an area that's a VERY long way from any bitches or neutering. The dogs that I personally knew did this, only got worse with age, until they absolutely had to be neutered. As this is a hormonal problem, I don't see how a low protein diet would help.

The low protein was assuming it was a kidney issue and not a hormonal issue. The Dr today said the specific gravity of his urine was a little above normal, which is why he described him as "hyper masculine".

I have a inhouse-bitch so moving isn't an issue.... even if I didn't, I can't sell this house in this crap economy

 

[Zoeys mom]

Can you fix your female or neuter him then? I'm not one to neuter males ever just females, but being the problem is hormonal it's something I wouldn't think twice about.

Also a higher kidney concentration doesn't mean "good kidney's" necessarily did they do blood work as well?

 

[hunterisgreat]

No not cancer now but constant inflammation of an organ does increase it's risk for cancer down the road- are you against neuter?

Yes, right now I am. I'm trying to make a real go of putting a BH and SchH on him in the near future and I don't need the potential playing with his testosterone levels defeating us. Also, should I title him and my bitch, as well as all the requisite health checks, I may breed the pair once and then neuter/spay (if I *chose* to do this, I already have all the potential pups placed, with alternates, with people I know and trust and who know my dogs now, and I'd be keeping a male anyway... also, I'm not selling them so we can dismiss any concerns that I'm interested in money. Between the two dogs, if I had the stupidity to count the sum of the expenses up to this point I'd probably slip into a mild depression. I knew its a money losing affair going in and don't expect that to ever change).

I understand the above statements may make **** rain down upon me from some of the crowd around here If its any comfort to those people, both dogs have trained with several top notch folks and had nothing but very positive words, and we've been to some of the "your dog doesn't have it, get off the field" clubs and been offered money to leave the dog (like thats ever going to happen ) If nothing else... keep in said I *might* breed them.

 

[Elaine]

The low protein was assuming it was a kidney issue and not a hormonal issue. The Dr today said the specific gravity of his urine was a little above normal, which is why he described him as "hyper masculine".

I have a inhouse-bitch so moving isn't an issue.... even if I didn't, I can't sell this house in this crap economy

Sorry, I should have caught the kidney reference but there is so much mucus in my head that it's very hard to think straight today.

I'm glad the vet did try and find a fixable medical problem before blaming his hormones. Good vet!

The people I knew also had intact bitches. They tried shipping out the bitch or the male when she started coming into heat, but it wasn't good enough and the male still suffered.

As you own a bitch and you train with other bitches, the only thing I can say is get prepared to neuter your male for his sake before he ends up with a blockage and ends up with a medical emergency. It sucks, but I don't know what else to say.

 

[hunterisgreat]

Can you fix your female or neuter him then? I'm not one to neuter males ever just females, but being the problem is hormonal it's something I wouldn't think twice about.

Also a higher kidney concentration doesn't mean "good kidney's" necessarily did they do blood work as well?

They have yes... but Dr said today, kidney failure would normally show abnormally clear urine in an intact male. Keep in mind males retain most of their urine to boost its stench and make it more useful for marking (which he of course does constantly)

 

[hunterisgreat]

Sorry, I should have caught the kidney reference but there is so much mucus in my head that it's very hard to think straight today.

I'm glad the vet did try and find a fixable medical problem before blaming his hormones. Good vet!

The people I knew also had intact bitches. They tried shipping out the bitch or the male when she started coming into heat, but it wasn't good enough and the male still suffered.

As you own a bitch and you train with other bitches, the only thing I can say is get prepared to neuter your male for his sake before he ends up with a blockage and ends up with a medical emergency. It sucks, but I don't know what else to say.

* also... he shows no behavoural changes or pain

Well, none of the vets have expressed a concern about a blockage... you mean from a clot *at* the prostate? Theres never been any clotting (I watch and analyze every single pee he does). Its always watered down. As its just inflamed I'm not sure that the blood clots as it would if there were a cut simply because the clotting factors would be too diluted with urine... but then I am not a Dr so thats just me thinking out loud.

If we can keep it to only some blood the week my female is in heat, and there are no other concerns regarding its cause, thats acceptable as we can probably treat it effectively with anti-inflamitories when she's in season. The last time we treated was the time we found what seemed to work very effectively. At any rate, Dr said if it didn't stop by the end of the week come back and we'll get another game plan together

 

[Elaine]

No, I'm talking about the prostate swelling up enough to cause a urinary blockage.

 

[hunterisgreat]

No, I'm talking about the prostate swelling up enough to cause a urinary blockage.

That should be something I catch within an hour of happening I think though. I mean... how could one miss a dog not urinating all day? I'm pretty anal/paranoid with my dogs so nothing abnormal slips past me. He got bloat 1.5 years ago and I managed to catch that before there was any tissue damage (part luck, part always on the lookout)

 

[Elaine]

Yes, you should notice your dog not peeing, but it's a serious medical emergency and, as far as I know, the only fix is neutering. You can rush your dog in and they MIGHT be able to catheterize him, but they can't leave one in and what are you going to do if the prostate is so swollen they can't put in a cath? I suppose they could use a syringe and do a cysto to cut the pressure. Even with an emergency neuter, it takes days for the testosterone levels to begin to drop and I don't know how quickly that would shrink the prostate.

Keep in mind this is an extreme situation, but a possible one.

I know you don't want to re-home either dog or fix either dog; puts you in a kind of a tight spot as this isn't going to go away without some sort of change and most likely will get worse with time.

 

[hunterisgreat]

Yes, you should notice your dog not peeing, but it's a serious medical emergency and, as far as I know, the only fix is neutering. You can rush your dog in and they MIGHT be able to catheterize him, but they can't leave one in and what are you going to do if the prostate is so swollen they can't put in a cath? I suppose they could use a syringe and do a cysto to cut the pressure. Even with an emergency neuter, it takes days for the testosterone levels to begin to drop and I don't know how quickly that would shrink the prostate.

Keep in mind this is an extreme situation, but a possible one.

I know you don't want to re-home either dog or fix either dog; puts you in a kind of a tight spot as this isn't going to go away without some sort of change and most likely will get worse with time.

I think as long as we move forward smartly and cautiously there is no need to neuter immediately (and this isn't me having wishful thinking, its also the vets opinion). The vet actually has mentioned that they see the issue more often in younger males than older males, as older males tend to mellow out about in season females, and testosterone levels naturally decrease with age anyway (which makes sense... same happens in humans)

I will also add, that todays exam was not an extremely swollen prostate (nor has there ever been) and that there's never been any indication of reduced urine flow)

On a side note, someone just dropped a *horrible* dog fart in my office

 

[Elaine]

I agree there's no need to neuter immediately so long as you are aware of the problem and keep an eye on it. Of the dogs that I knew personally with this problem, it definitely got worse with age. Hope your vet knows better than I.

 

[hunterisgreat]

I agree there's no need to neuter immediately so long as you are aware of the problem and keep an eye on it. Of the dogs that I knew personally with this problem, it definitely got worse with age. Hope your vet knows better than I.

I wonder why? Testosterone def goes down with age, and all neutering does is lower testosterone.

When you say age, are what age frame are you talking?

 

[hunterisgreat]

On a side note, I saw a chart once showing the ages of men and their testosterone levels, with the incidence of accidental death in men at given ages over that... the lines were amazingly correlated lol. Testosterone isn't good for the health lol

 

[arycrest]

Not exactly your problem, but Mac had a vasectomy as a puppy and when he was about six years old I noticed blood dripping out of his penis. The vet said his prostate was enlarged (about 3"x6" instead of the normal walnut size). I had him neutered and it took a while, but it finally got down to a normal size. He's 10-1/2 now and hasn't had any more problems.

 

[hunterisgreat]

Not exactly your problem, but Mac had a vasectomy as a puppy and when he was about six years old I noticed blood dripping out of his penis. The vet said his prostate was enlarged (about 3"x6" instead of the normal walnut size). I had him neutered and it took a while, but it finally got down to a normal size. He's 10-1/2 now and hasn't had any more problems.

Why did they do a vasectomy? Vice just a normal neutering? I assume if the berries are still there so is the testosterone right?

 

[arycrest]

Why did they do a vasectomy? Vice just a normal neutering? I assume if the berries are still there so is the testosterone right?

EXACTLY ... I believe hormones are important!

 

[hunterisgreat]

EXACTLY ... I believe hormones are important!

So you were solely trying to eliminate the possibility of breeding, and neutered only when the testosterone became an issue then?