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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Please no bashing or ranting. I am just asking for opinions, facts, and sources. I did not breed this litter myself. I do not own either of these dogs.

If you had the opportunity to get a free puppy with otherwise good bloodlines and health tests, would you accept a puppy from a litter where the dam's father is the sire's half-brother? Why or why not? What are the possible risks or things to be aware of? Links to sources, studies, etc. are greatly appreciated!

I can tell you that the father is OFA Fair on hips and Passing on elbows, and that both of his parents are OFA Excellent on hips and Passing on elbows. Only health problems that the site has ever had were UTIs. I do not know if the dam has been tested. I will try to get more info on her and her parents though.

Sire:http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2199933-kodiak-vom-steppenwolf-bach

Dam's Mother:http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2097794-berenike-zelgastar

Dam's Father:http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1875194-yago-von-felsschlucht-bach
 

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here is your mating outcome. (regardless of whether this is the right female, it's the same breeding)

The sire's father is the dam's grandfather.

Litter from Kodiak Vom Steppenwolf Bach and Cora Pearl Vom Steppenwolf Bach

Now...would I get a puppy from a breeding similar to this? Yes. IF there was a reason behind the breeding. I know of a litter with this exact same circumstance that was bred to bring certain traits from a specific line back in.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
here is your mating outcome. (regardless of whether this is the right female, it's the same breeding)

The sire's father is the dam's grandfather.

Litter from Kodiak Vom Steppenwolf Bach and Cora Pearl Vom Steppenwolf Bach

Now...would I get a puppy from a breeding similar to this? Yes. IF there was a reason behind the breeding. I know of a litter with this exact same circumstance that was bred to bring certain traits from a specific line back in.
Thank you for the response! The dam's name is Kilo, but I dont know her full AKC name and it didnt look like her parents had made a profile for her on pedigree database unfortunately.

Also, I found out that Kilo has not been health tested at all, but her father, Yago, is DM clear and OFA passing on hips and elbows. Kodiak has not been tested for DM, but both of his parents are DM clear.
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Discussion Starter #6
I do not own either dog.

I fell on really hard times a while back and had to find Kody a new home because he was very sick and I couldn't afford to take him to the vet. The people who own Kilo took him in. Now I am in a much better place with a large emergency fund saved up, and since Kody accidentally impregnated Kilo, they are offering me a free puppy.
 

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If you had the opportunity to get a free puppy with otherwise good bloodlines and health tests, would you accept a puppy from a litter where the dam's father is the sire's half-brother? Why or why not? What are the possible risks or things to be aware of? Links to sources, studies, etc. are greatly appreciated!
Disclaimer: I'm not a breeder, I've never bred a litter, nor do I personally compete my dogs in conformation or sport. That said, as much of a sucker as I am for a cute puppy, I, personally would pass. It's good that you have certain test results, but without additional background information there are too many unknowns in the scenario described for my comfort level. I understand the appeal of a free puppy but, over the years, I've found that the purchase price is often the least costly expenditure that you could encounter if your luck turns south.

Many of those unknowns might be discoverable with due diligence on your part by simply talking to the breeder (e.g., temperament characteristics in previous generations, trainability in previous generations, health issues in previous generations, etc). Other unknowns may not be so easily discovered. Too often it depends on the breeder's openness/honesty about what's behind her/his lines and how well s/he's kept track of previous litters. Some breeders are superb about this, others not so much.

IMO, the real risk in the scenario you've described is the degree of inbreeding that this puppy represents. Yes, inbreeding can 'fix' the characteristics that the breeder is trying to enhance/strengthen. But it also can 'fix' characteristics that the breeder may be unaware of or would have preferred to avoid. Further, those undesirable characteristics may be highly heritable although virtually undocumented as such because genetic testing isn't available or, if available, is prohibitively expensive. IMO, the real risk of inbreeding is that you don't know what you don't know; the results can easily become an exemplar of the Law of Unintended Consequences. Mind you, breeders run the same risks even with outcrosses. With line and inbreeding, however, those risks increase substantially because the available gene pool, so to say, has shrunk significantly over successive generations.

I've pulled a couple of (not too jargony) articles that might help in your decision-making. Or not... ;)

https://breedingbusiness.com/consequences-of-dog-inbreeding/

https://embarkvet.com/oedipus-rex-inbreeding-its-consequences-and-its-quantification/

https://www.hsvma.org/assets/pdfs/guide-to-congenital-and-heritable-disorders.pdf
 

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The sire used to be your dog? then you are fully aware of temperament and health issues and you have a good knowledge of these lines??

I agree with Steve 100%
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I'm not really planning on breeding this new puppy unless she just unexpectedly turns out to be exceptional in terms of temperament, working ability, and heath, and while I would like to compete her in Schutzhund, I'm not going to get my hopes up with her being some world champion or anything. The only thing I'm really worried about is getting a puppy that turns out wonky with devastating health issues. As long as they turn out good looking and with reasonably decent health, I'm happy with a free puppy.

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Discussion Starter #11
Thank you so much for the sources! I am reading through them now :)
Disclaimer: I'm not a breeder, I've never bred a litter, nor do I personally compete my dogs in conformation or sport. That said, as much of a sucker as I am for a cute puppy, I, personally would pass. It's good that you have certain test results, but without additional background information there are too many unknowns in the scenario described for my comfort level. I understand the appeal of a free puppy but, over the years, I've found that the purchase price is often the least costly expenditure that you could encounter if your luck turns south.

Many of those unknowns might be discoverable with due diligence on your part by simply talking to the breeder (e.g., temperament characteristics in previous generations, trainability in previous generations, health issues in previous generations, etc). Other unknowns may not be so easily discovered. Too often it depends on the breeder's openness/honesty about what's behind her/his lines and how well s/he's kept track of previous litters. Some breeders are superb about this, others not so much.

IMO, the real risk in the scenario you've described is the degree of inbreeding that this puppy represents. Yes, inbreeding can 'fix' the characteristics that the breeder is trying to enhance/strengthen. But it also can 'fix' characteristics that the breeder may be unaware of or would have preferred to avoid. Further, those undesirable characteristics may be highly heritable although virtually undocumented as such because genetic testing isn't available or, if available, is prohibitively expensive. IMO, the real risk of inbreeding is that you don't know what you don't know; the results can easily become an exemplar of the Law of Unintended Consequences. Mind you, breeders run the same risks even with outcrosses. With line and inbreeding, however, those risks increase substantially because the available gene pool, so to say, has shrunk significantly over successive generations.

I've pulled a couple of (not too jargony) articles that might help in your decision-making. Or not... ;)

https://breedingbusiness.com/consequences-of-dog-inbreeding/

https://embarkvet.com/oedipus-rex-inbreeding-its-consequences-and-its-quantification/

https://www.hsvma.org/assets/pdfs/guide-to-congenital-and-heritable-disorders.pdf
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Discussion Starter #13
You mentioned you rehomed the sire of this litter due to health issues... I don’t want to pry, but are those issues completely resolved? Is there any chance that the health issues were genetic? I’d be concerned about having a sick puppy, depending on the answer to those questions.
Yes, the health issues were recurring UTIs that I just couldn't afford to continue to treat.

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He just turned 6 this past summer? so you just recently rehomed him within the last 6 months? If that's true, then I think you need to wait to really make sure you are financially stable.
 

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I do not own either dog.

I fell on really hard times a while back and had to find Kody a new home because he was very sick and I couldn't afford to take him to the vet. The people who own Kilo took him in. Now I am in a much better place with a large emergency fund saved up, and since Kody accidentally impregnated Kilo, they are offering me a free puppy.
Somehow I missed this before. Congratulations on getting yourself to a better place such that you can consider a new puppy. That's an achievement; creating an emergency fund while you did so was a very smart move.

Steve makes a very good point about considering this puppy as a 'rescue.' As someone who happily lives with a GSD obtained from the local shelter, I've largely adopted that approach myself. But, I've done so fully mindful that there may be heritable issues that I'll never know about until they pop up --- if they ever do.

The reality is that many of those same things might pop up with a well bred puppy produced by an experienced breeder (BTDT). Stuff happens. The other reality, however, is that the lack of any background info for my girl still bothers me. Even at this point, you have more information (or access thereto) than I do. I'd exploit that opportunity and find out as much as I possibly could as part of my decision-making.

Good luck, whatever you decide. Puppies are hard to resist. ;)
 

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I'm not really planning on breeding this new puppy unless she just unexpectedly turns out to be exceptional in terms of temperament, working ability, and heath, and while I would like to compete her in Schutzhund, I'm not going to get my hopes up with her being some world champion or anything. The only thing I'm really worried about is getting a puppy that turns out wonky with devastating health issues. As long as they turn out good looking and with reasonably decent health, I'm happy with a free puppy.

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Let me understand this... You previously owned the male, who had some health issues which you had some issues with affording treatments and you placed or gave him to someone, who then allowed an accidental breeding with closely related female. Now that you are in a better financial situation, they are offering you a female puppy for free. It is a 2-3 breeding which is no longer allowed by the SV, from non health tested parents, without titles, and you already might possibly consider breeding the female pup down the road, if she turns out nice???

While I understand that accidental breeding's can happen, with the closeness in relationship, there really should have been more responsibility in managing the two dogs. The problem with close breeding's is that your risk of severe issues showing up, increase drastically. If you do decide to take a pup, never ever consider breeding it, and have it altered. Make the best of the situation by training and working with the pup, but know that you are taking the pup just to give it a good home, as a pet/rescue, and a learning experierence. Lots to think about and consider. I certainly wouldn't take a pup from this accidental breeding, especially if you want to compete in Schutzhund. Good Luck.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
If she shouldnt be bred, that's fine, but I definitely don't plan on spaying her. I've read way too much on the health issues associated with it. I would never allow an unplanned breeding though. Now that I live in a condo and no longer have a backyard, I have no risk of my dogs (I have a female yorkie) escaping anymore, so I really wont have to worry about an unplanned litter.

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I don't know why the sire's best photo has him in a diaper. That suggests health issues. Also, I wouldn't buy or even take for free a pup from a breeder who has an oops. I don't believe in oopses and find they represent a higher level of irresponsibility than any intentional breeding.


Like me, I have a bitch, awesome dam, who has had 5 litters for me. She will be 9 in March. To breed her at this point, her last litter is about 10 months old, well I personally think she is too old to be bred again, even though she is healthy and looks good. Now, I think folks that would get a puppy from me, might frown on me breeding her so late. But if I were to say, "Oh yeah, Kojak scaled the fence and was in with her..." then, everything would be ok, lots of laughs all around and my boy gets a pat on his back.

No. The almighty oops litter is just too easy to claim and therefore get a pass for any time of shoddy breeding practices.

Have a young bitch that is under a year, but you really, really want puppies, oops!

Have a dog and his half-sister that would make really cute puppies, oops!

Have a dog with no papers, but you just know its purebred, oops!

In with a group that really like to see titles, but you can't get a title on a dog for some reason, oops!

Have a bitch with hip dysplasia, or EPI, or MegE, conformation fault, etc., oops!

Pet-people can maybe get away with the oopses because, they maybe are not as in to the politics, animal rights people wanting everything on four legs spayed or neutered, and to the lengths that some of those folks will go to see that happen, where in places it is, in fact, mandatory. How do people fight that when our attitude toward oops-breedings is "whoops, accidents happen." Breeders have intact dogs and bitches and they know how to keep them intact without oopses happening. They have to do that. I mean, how do you ensure that your bitch was only inseminated by a specific dog, if you can't keep dogs and bitches separate?
 
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