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Discussion Starter #1
So, the first club we trained at was akc pupy and it was sits,downs and heels and recalls. The trainer stood in the center and barked orders, no advice or instruction. So when I went to shuthund the trainer hated seeing me do that and told me to just have her drive into my hand. Weve done that, mostly with heeling with her driving in to my hand, plus recalls. That training is mostly protection, and after protection its kinda a free for all obedience session where people do their own thing.
I do realize we need more training, thats why im driving out to the shutz in the first place. I tried another club today thinking maybe Id go to both since they are on seperate days. One of the members at my first club is in both.
So today we went to shutz club #2, and the trainer doesnt like me.:confused: I probably cut a sentence or 3 of his short when I asked questions and he was not getting what I asked, like he said all food treats come from the mouth and then I was asking about if that applied to heel. In protection he told me to be a tree and at some point he wanted her to let go so he could switch toy and I started to say good luck gettting it out and got scolded for speaking.
In the end he loves my dog, says she could win conformation shows even though he doesnt like working dogs (shes Czech, dark sable) He also said about 5 times that I dont deserve this dog??? I told another club member I bought her off puppyfind and I got scolded for saying that also. He told me my dog would be a welcome member and hed like to own her but he doesnt feel id be a welcome member because Im too much of a know it all for a first time dog owner.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
He had us just walk into the field and do what we wanted. I went into under pressure, better show off mode and did commands chainsaw style while overfeeding. In the end the criticism I remember was heels were being led with my hand behind me instead of where she could look at me. Overfeeding, she peed on field, need even more focus. he said I was doing it all wrong but I need to tape myself to see why. The Micheal Ellis dvds have me ahead of the curve a bit and the trainers dont like me saying in one sentence im a first time owner and then "pretending" I know what Im talking about. Im always left looking for more info...
 

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Keep looking for a new club, I guess? I can't imagine why a schutzhund trainer would not like working lines? lol

I am new to schutzhund, so I try to keep my ears open and mouth shut. I do ask questions, but if your trainer is talking let them finish. If you're acting like a know it all (not saying you are, just IF you are), then you are not being a good student.

There are also different styles of training, and they may have a different way of achieving the same goal. You have to decide if it works for you and your dog.

There is a lot to learn and I find schutzhund is a bit counter-intuitive, so I make a lot of mistakes, but the people at my club have been wonderful and supportive of me, even though I stink at it. Maybe I'm lucky that I found a great club.
 

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The trainer with the second club sounds rather rude and quite blunt, BUT......... sometimes it is best to keep one's mouth closed and just listen. I don't care if you are new to the sport or have titled a few dogs. You do not have to agree with what is being said or even do what is asked, but you have asked them for help so be polite and listen.

Also, not all trainers are good teachers even if they are good coaches (there is a differences). Some can be very brusque and blunt.

Is there an option to work privately with either of the TD's? That might be better for you.
 

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I'd have a hard time with trainer #2 I think. I like to ask questions and get full answers. I like to know the reasoning behind the method taught etc. Maybe that is something you could work out after class with him. I had a good relationship with my old trainer. I even became his assistant when I couldn't afford to pay him. I helped out in class, moved equipment, and got to bring Raina to 4 classes a week for free and one treadmill session a week. It was really sad when he moved away, although I have gone up to visit once. Raina really remembered him as he was instrumental in helping me get her from Germany and they formed an attachment. I haven't found any other trainers I like as much so I just do my own training.
 

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Without being there....I guess I'll say that some Schutzhund trainers I've been do not mince words. They tend to be brutally honest, for better or worse. Some people/clubs also have the mentality that newbies need to really prove they WANT to be there and can commit so they aren't spoon-fed and hand-held along but get critiqued and criticized like everyone else. I don't know if that's the case here but it could be. It's not right or wrong, you'll just have to see if you are a good fit with the club.

Sometimes I can't perform like what I'm visualizing in my head so I just have to sit back and listen and then go home and work on it. Last night I had an agility lesson and we looked TERRIBLE but were trying some things that are very new to my dog. If my dog is not performing like I know he can, generally I move on but then go back and work on what the trainer was talking about at home, then come back next week and show off the progress.

I've titled two dogs in Schutzhund and several dogs in many other things but I still feel like a newbie at Schutzhund. I learn something new every time I go and I'm sure I make several mistakes every time too :)
 

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Some of my students come to me wanting to learn things their way.....we don't usually last long. Some of my students don't progress as fast because they are questioning when they should be listening....then when they execute they miss parts of what they should have been listening too. Lastly, some students question everything we do, reasonable questions on a new direction we are taking is fine, but to expect me to break everything down to why do it this way and I was told that....., and sometimes Fuffy won't ......., after a while I have to shut it down. When you go to someone to train your dog and you, the one necessary component that is needed is TRUST in the trainer......without trust it's really better for both parties to move on. I'm not saying you are any of the above, but in reading your account I get a certain déjà vu.......good luck in your pursuit. Find a trainer you can trust and pay attention and execute with your dog, and I think you will find success. Obviously, the trainers think the dog has merit!
 

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"I probably cut a sentence or 3 of his short when I asked questions and he was not getting what I asked, like he said all food treats come from the mouth and then I was asking about if that applied to heel. In protection he told me to be a tree and at some point he wanted her to let go so he could switch toy and I started to say good luck gettting it out and got scolded for speaking."

"He had us just walk into the field and do what we wanted. I went into under pressure, better show off mode and did commands chainsaw style while overfeeding."

-- common theme?


I wasn't sure if I would reply here, since without being present we only have the story as seen through your glasses. Some dog people are better with dogs than people, others work well with both.

It's up to you what to do - is the trainer someone who has accomplished what you'd like to accomplish? Does he know what he's talking about generally in your opinion? If so, just take it on the chin and keep training. Otherwise, or if it's too much for you to handle you can just find a new club. Not everyone meshes well together and while we all have a common interest in training dogs we won't agree on everything.

Plus, maybe you did come off as a know-it-all a little bit, again I wasn't there so can't say what my opinion of the interaction was but sometimes its good to just sit back and listen, learn, and only when you've proven your worth give others your opinion.

I'm the worst, but the other way. I did not offer anyone unsolicited advice and coaching in the club until we've earned our IPO3 in front of everyone and done well in trials simply because I didn't want to impose my opinion, and let the TD handle training others. Now, of course its different and I help other people handle their dogs - but I explicitly asked the TD's permission to help this or that person with (OB|TR|PR) to make sure we don't conflict. I still listen, and follow my TD's advice, but I've earned his trust in saying "oh this might not work with him or that might be better" _sometimes_ ;) but in the beginning I stayed quiet, followed instructions, and gave all my effort to learn. I questioned nothing, and tried everything - as long as I didn't consider it abusive!

But I'll tell you, its not just the dog's nerves that are tested in SchH :) You have to learn to deal with difficult moments and difficult people.

Good luck!
 

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With years of training behind me (equine & canine) I've found it's much better to make a mistake due to not understanding instructions from a trainer, then to stop the trainer in an attempt to make the instructions clear.

If I have specific questions regarding a specific request, I'll wait till the end of the class. Nine times out of 10 the question will be answered before class is over. If you hang up on a specific thing, you'll miss additional information. Not a good thing.

I have a young filly that I'm having some problems with. Recently, my instructor set up a course for me to follow. He provided clear instructions on how to run the course. Sadly, after the first couple of obstacles, I lost the plot. I was far to focused on form and function than I was on where I was going, and what I was going to do next. My instructor screamed at me to stop. He screamed "WHERE ARE YOU GOING? WHAT ARE YOU DOING?" That may sound rude to most....BUT he made it perfectly clear EXACTLY where my error had been all along. He had to let me make my mistake so I'd realize what it was I was doing to my filly.

What did I do? I started laughing. My instructor called me off the course and told me he was going to get me an Equine mounted GPS unit.
 

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It took me almost a month to figure out that I needed to be quiet and listen. And I learned the same thing Lilie mentions. I'm doing better, and am far more encouraged overall just working through it and making the mistakes. That way he can correct me in the moment. It has helped a ton.

I don't need to have it all in my head when I start. My dog doesn't, lol!

That, and the fact that I'm paying the trainer for his expertise, so I'm not trying to waste my money listening to myself talk ;)
 

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You will need to find a balance between taking instruction and knowing what is best for YOUR dog. However I think that comes with time and experience. I won't do something with/to my dog just because a trainer tells me to. Even if I'm not that experienced with Schutzhund, I know MY dog, I live with him, I have been with him almost every day since he was 7 weeks old, and I have a good idea of where I want us to end up. A lot of times I just shut up and listen, let the person fully explain what they are saying and hopefully demonstrate what they mean. But then I take the bits and pieces that I think make sense or compliment our training program and where I want to go and sort of tailor that for my dog. I have made mistakes with my dog in the past because I just did exactly what other people said and didn't really think it through and it might have been the wrong thing for my dog. That will happen and you learn from it. It just takes a lot of time and effort.
 

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I'm sorry, there is constructive criticism and then there is destructive criticism. I don't know how you kept your cool with that second instructor, but anyone telling me I'm not welcome in a club or that I don't deserve my dog can kiss my lilly white backside! It's that simple. I don't think what you did warrented those responses. Not when your making the effort to be there an trying to learn. These interactions are what kills the interest in sports. It's an elitist attitude. There are constructive ways to get their point across. Like pulling you to the side and just saying that he feels this club is not the right fit for you. Nothing like "your not welcome here". The very second after that comment I would have been heading towards the door. He also could have put it in better terms in reguards to your dog also by saying in the the right hands your dog could be great and or has great potential.

I wouldn't lose a minute of sleep over it. I would use it as motivation on becoming better within another club.

I'm not trying to excuse you from your ill timed questions by cutting his sentences short though. There is a time and place for it and that wasn't the time or place. JMO
 

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Actually, the comments by that second trainer were mild to some of the better trainers I know. Not saying its right, but many of the top trainers are very egotistic and self centered. Many think they are the only ones who can train, and only their way. Unfortunately, as with other temperamental artist (music, art, ), their ability keeps them in demand. Move on and you will find a trainer that meshes with you.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
We went back to the 1st class tonight. The lady who is in both clubs seems kinda like 2nd in command. She told me to ask the trainer how to play with my dog. I asked her exactly what to ask again and she had another person forward the message to the trainer. He responded "I told you to play with her" I said I do and he said no obedience just drive. I showed him what the trainer yesterday said to do with spitting food when she looks into my eyes and She was doing good at that, staring at me, I didnt ask for anything else- he said he sees no use for that, just drive into the hand.
 

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We went back to the 1st class tonight. The lady who is in both clubs seems kinda like 2nd in command. She told me to ask the trainer how to play with my dog. I asked her exactly what to ask again and she had another person forward the message to the trainer. He responded "I told you to play with her" I said I do and he said no obedience just drive. I showed him what the trainer yesterday said to do with spitting food when she looks into my eyes and She was doing good at that, staring at me, I didnt ask for anything else- he said he sees no use for that, just drive into the hand.
That in itself might be another issue. You are training with two clubs, each TD has his / her own way of doing things and there's nothing more annoying than trying to explain something to someone only for them to come back with 'well this person said to do something else'.

I know a few people that train the same venue at multiple clubs but they generally don't argue about how to do things with their trainers but rather go into each place pretending they know nothing else. Then they take what works from each club and combine it. Being a first time dog owner and handler you might want to just choose one club and follow their program for a while and see if you like the results. Then you can decide for yourself which system is better for you and your dog.

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There are times when you want to have the puppy give you focus(food in the mouth/spitting it), and times when you want the pup to drive into your hand for the reward. It depends on what you are working on.
I agree with having the dog drive into the reward instead of it just being freely given at the position.
Mark the position then reward with the dog doing an up or moving your hand so the dog has to work for it. Food will flatten a dog, so a dog with over the top drive can work better sometimes with a food reward vs a toy.
Dogs with a bit lower drive work better with toy vs food. You have to use what works for your dog and it does all depend on what exercises you are working on.

I train with three different trainers(clubs) and try to stay consistent with my own program, transferring over what we are working on at all three venues. The trainers I work with understand and don't try to change up the consistency. But if something isn't working, then change is good!
I agree with Lisa, try to find someone to privately work with...then carry what you are working on privately over to the field time. Most of the time at club, there is not enough time to try to teach, it has to be done elsewhere then you use the club/field to proof with all the distractions.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Well Im not going back to the second trainer. His theory jives completely with what I was doing. Thats why when he told me stuff I said we are already doing that, so he thought of me as a know it all. But his methods wont work with me, Im too stubborn to be scolded for bs or kowtow to a trainer. It was also quite odd that he doesnt like working lines, he told me that they have teh wrong structure for bitework? But that mine was one of the best hes ever seen and she has proper show/bitework conformation.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
We saw a new helper today, at my breeders house. They do obed there, so im gonna continue. The helper bought my dogs sister and had her doing great heels.
 
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