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Often breeders take things personal when it comes to individual dogs, all dogs have good and bad in them....its how you use the dog that dictates breeding success.JMO
I have to agree with your comment here cliff, I find while tracing lines there are often breeders of such dogs that are tight lipped when it comes to faults and only want to share the positive information on such dogs.

I really like hearing what you have to say about such dogs as you have no problem sharing your thoughts of such dogs whether they are good or bad and feel others like myself can learn much about the breed from members like yourself and a few others here too.

IMO there is no perfect German Shepherd and its thru our breeding that we can only hope betters the breed
 

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Prick eared dogs came from the Thuringian region , with some wolf blood introduced to seal the deal and ensure that all important prick ear look. So the dogs that brought in the signature feature , prick ear, were problematic .
I keep hearing about wolf blood being introduced (or perhaps it was always there) during the genesis of the GSD. Some say it is a myth. Can you tell me where it is documented that wolf blood was introduced?
 

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You had me doing research last night. :)

Some of the dogs that are most common in working pedigrees that have Canto are **** [haa! his name got censored out!] and Dixie v Adeloga and Argus and Aslan v Klamme.
I didn't know that the Klamme dogs were working lines? Did you mean Klammle? they are show line dogs, and Asslan is a Canto son.
 

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http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2201230

here is a Bernd heavy pup that Scuba Bob will be getting in the next week or so.
I have not had ear carriage problems .

I saw Asslan Klammle just after he arrived -- those were the days when groups of dog-friends would pile into a car and go to the airport to see the dog when he arrived .
When Asslan made his debut , he slipped away --- and he ran and ran and ran (good structure) and ran and ran -- and went missing and everyone held their breath because the show grounds were parallel to a very busy highway . You needed a butterfly net to catch the dog.
His sister Atrice was refused breeding rights in Germany , got exported into America where she finished her championship. I believe I saw her also --
Asslan's mother Zilly had problems with temperament . Apparently Argus was better .
There are some working dogs that do have Canto in the background. As Cliff said , they may have gone to him for one generations worth for some short cut structural fix . This includes Czech dogs and west German working lines . No problem in doing that - sometimes it is necessary .

Problem with Canto and his siblings (which were crazy, dysplastic and short lived) and his mother who it is written could not pass the breed survey because of her temperament , and Liane even failed to get her hip stamp -- makes you wonder how really bad they were that they were beyond the NZ , which is ofa "mild" . Canto's sire also suspect and questionable in temperament-- all written about in Wooton and Willis etc .
Canto's sister Cira was so shy she was refused breeding privileges.
Canto only lived to 4 years of age . He produced roach backs, loose ligaments, poor too fine male heads , and colour paling.
Poor Canto , he is himself a victim of the iceberg -- his sire , his grandsire , his dam all failing in temperament. - Brian Wooton -- Hein Konigsbruch and his sire Fix Sieben Faulen all doing poor man work -- and that is what we continue to see to this day in the man work phase of schutzhund .
I mentioned somewhere else on this forum , not this particular thread , but elsewhere that some dogs move forward with active aggression and take care of an issue, others swing between fight and flight dodging in for the nip and then springing out of harms way -- or going into wild avoidance --- but there are some which almost have a conversion , turning the whole thing upside down and being clueless about what to do or why they are there ?!? I did say for the pet home this latter category would be the safest -- at least it is predictable -- do nothing .

Another Wienerau dog Berta Lorscher Sand Progency list for V Berta vom Lorscher Sand - German Shepherd Dog had temperament problems BUT and AND she produced that red pigment which is what every one who phones asks for . Hello , I am looking for a blackandredmale german shepherd . And it all goes back and back and back to decisions made by von Stephanitz to excuse temperament and favour Roland Starkenburg and the female he was inbred on with her trophy (thuringian ) background , Lucie Starkenburg.


These are the dogs at our breeds beginnings . You have to weave blocks of genetics in and throughout the years , bringing in character dogs all the time .

The show lines demonstrate an outbalance in staying in a very narrow range , selecting from mostly one strain --

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs
 

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I didn't know that the Klamme dogs were working lines? Did you mean Klammle? they are show line dogs, and Asslan is a Canto son.
Yes, sorry, I typoed the spelling--despite looking it up! (and, I would like to to go back and correct my post--I don't know what I was looking at, but **** and Dixie v Adeloga do not have Canto behind them! but I can no longer edit it.)

I'm not saying that they are "working lines" -- but if you go back in working pedigrees to see if they go to Canto, it's often through Argus that you reach Canto. But that's not the only path, obviously

For example, one of the top German dogs of the decade is Falk vd Wolfen's (and his full brother Cherokee) mom is Fina v Hainpark, whose mom is Wally ad Weinbergstal. Wally is behind a number of good working dogs, including Dasty v Hainpark. She's a top-producing female who produced top-producing dogs--so she's in a lot of working dog pedigrees. She has one line back to Canto through Irk vd Weinerau.

Hmmm. I don't know what I was looking at last night, but now I'm not finding the same dogs. ::headdesk:: Today, I'm having trouble finding working pedigrees that trace back to Canto. The ones that I do find usually have only one line that goes through Canto. So he's not that great of a bottleneck.

You do see a lot of working lines that go back to Mutz von der Pelztierfarm!
 

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Its not the dog Canto, individually, that is bad, (though I would have only used him to insert some movement maybe ONCE), ITS the use of Canto repeatedly by breeders that created the issues.
The best thing for the breed would have been if Canto v.d. Wienerau had died at birth like his brother. :) Just my not so humble opinion. ;)
 

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Yes, you see Mutz, Marko Cellerland and Quanto Wienerau behind a lot of good working dogs. Unfortunately Marko fell out of popularity except for the working people.
 

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Klammle is not working lines.

Yes Wolf blood was introduced -- those were experiments done early on with the Phylax society which wanted to produce a sharp looking prick eared dog . Phylax Society - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Pollux considered a protype of the breed resembled a wolf and according to some would have been bettered suited for a zoo exhibit than herding sheep.
Some of the early dogs had controversy and cover-up surrounding them.
One reason for introduction of wolf blood was the attempt to stop distempers.
When I read some of the "Dog World" magazines going back to the 1920's you see how serious distemper , commonly known as hard pad back in the day , was.
Well it seems like all the wags, the dandies about town wanted the novelty of the wolf hybrid , so breeding for commerce , for money , to meet demand began . A good little outside source of cash for hardworking herders . This is where and how Horand , the father to be of the breed , came about. This is long before rittmeister von Stephanitz appears in the picture. This dog was known as Hektor Linksrhein . When von Stephanitz clapped his eyes onto Hektor at a local exhibition , he knew this was the dog he had to have, this is the dog that idealized the concept of this new breed they were trying to form. And so he bought the dog and quickly changed the name to the name under which his breedings were to be recognized -- HORAND v GRAFRATH . From all that I have been able to read , whether English or German language , Hektor, Horand had really good temperament and could have contributed even better had von Stephanitz heeded the warnings of Sparwasser (his breeder?) and "So" Eiselen (both hard core career shepherds) . They told him point blank (I was not there -- but being point blank is rather teutonic) do not linebreed and do not inbreed . The wolf negatives will be brought to the fore. So what happens -- ?
Linebreeding , inbreeding , and the rest is history.
von Stephanitz was a better organizer of people than a breeder. I wonder where things would have gone had Eiselen (Anton "So") , a master breeder of his era, been given greater influence.

that is the history of our breed - information gleaned over the years from authors Willis, Wooton , Barwig, Lanting , Schwabacher , DogSports magazine, GS Quarterly, SV magazine, oral tradition from the old timers ---

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs
 

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sorry I was trying to provide a picture of Scuba Bobs very rigid eared pup , shown at 7 weeks of age and heavy in Bernd Lierberg and Marko Cellerland --
you can see him on the posts for DDR breeders

Blackthorn -- I happen to have a Cherokee daughter peika of shepherd glen - German Shepherd Dog , the dam line being a seriously hard peika of shepherd glen - German Shepherd Dog -- breeding done same to same , no compensation needed !

The inclusion of Canto does not worry or bother me in this or other instances where he was included for something , even if it was to follow a trend, because then the breeders got out and went right back to bringing in valued lines for hardiness, and character .

What was damaging is the building of the house of show lines with a cracked foundation . Has it or will it all topple down . When I look at dogs offered on the pedigree data base I am lost for words, yes, to see how deviant and crippled and vacant the dogs look , and am so sorry to see performance youtubes of protection at major , significant , show events , where dogs repell off the sleeve , avoid , or have no clue (there's that aggression conversion) what they are doing or why they are there.

Lisa --- I agree --- one thing that was not even mentioned was the introduction of bleeding disorder Haemophilia through Canto . He didn't have to whither away at birth , someone should have had some sense and said Stop , No .

Carmen
 

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Carmen and Lisa, you are right on point. You see all the things Carmen listed as weak with Canto and his siblings, and his parents, and his immediate progeny, (I too saw Asslan v Klamme showed under Ernie Loeb, he had a beautuful balanced sidegait, but you could see the unsureness in temperament.) and yet this dog(Canto), or his progeny is in more Showline pedigrees than any other dog. And people are still going to dogs with heavy backmassing on him. So the issues will not improve regardless of what the immediate dog you go to possesses if it is still saturated in Canto and his progeny. Its the "iceberg sydrome".
As for Marko, most of the breeders that I have learned from like to have this dog in their pedigrees. His downfall from the show world was his short upper arm, (but God was he balanced and that's why he won the World Seiger. A whole nother topic is when the show world went from rewarding extremely correct "balanced" dogs like Marko, to "only" rewarding extreme sidegaiters like Canto/Quanto. Notice the subtle shift from balance to extreme, in movement, also accompanied the downgrade from strong temperament to weaker temperament), and he produced blacks, bi-colors, when the powers that be only wanted to see "black and red". Even today, if you look at many of the V rated working lines, like the Maineche dogs you will find Marko vom Cellerland in the pedigree. Still a source of good working and good structure. Oh how many have tripped and bumped their heads in this breeding thing.lol
 

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What I've gathered from this discussion is that you can't really blame the breeder. Its the judges and public opinion that gets these dogs to become so prominent in future generations. One judge can really influence the breed for decades. Imagine if a German Shepherd won best of show at Westminster due to its perfect look, that dog would be parenting every show dog for the next 5 years. Maybe I'm way off base, but I just can't blame the "iceberg breeder" completely, at the end of the day, money talks.

The thread has gone from discussing the current "iceberg breeders" to the history of the breed, which from the beginning had them. If I read it correctly, Max himself could be considered an "iceberg breeder." I like the points being made though, even though they are way over my head as I have not studied the pedigrees and history as much as everyone else.

I do have to say it is upsetting to see the recent influx of postings about dogs that have maybe proven stud worthy or will be trained and tested in the future but have a small issue with them and yet are being planned to stud. Its even worse when this is an aparent issue and not just one hidden in the genetics. In my opinion every potential stud owner should ask themselves, "Do I want future generations to suffer with this issue?" Most times the answer would be no, but sadly due to the market the answer will sometimes be yes.
 

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Cliff my entire breeding line began with Rallos Farmenblick a Marko son , and now connected through Dix Maineiche Carmspack Cubby - German Shepherd Dog double Marko Cellerland -- plus valuable Racker Itztal.

Any pedigree that I have with "Rampa" who was a high in trial SchH 3 dog has Isar Steinacker also Marko.

Threading Marko and Bernd / Racker / some "thuringian - Mutz etc in and out has done well for me.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs
 

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a breeder is at the helm , in charge , not operating out of the dictates of fashion.
The judges were / are breeders . Look at the enormous pressure there is , the huge demand for black and red dogs . Would I produce them to be part of the market place -- not a chance -- .
A judge can influence the direction of a breed . So can a trainer, a method -- seen in the high prey in current sport .

Winners of Westminster or the British equivalent do influence breeding decisions . Then you get the horrible Cavalier spaniels , potentially the worlds best companion lap dogs with horrible excruciating seizures because their brain case is too small and pressure is put on the brain. Does anyone stop breeding to the popular , causative lines? No.

Stud dogs are made by owners of the bitches . They select the studs.
 

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the discussion has not shifted away from the image of the ice berg . All these things are the unseen , under the surface mass that can sink your ship . Know where this unseen mass is and you can navigate to the waters and shore that you want to arrive at . Deny it or go full speed ahead and you take your chances .

Carmen
 

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This thread should be required reading for anyone looking to even post the cliche thread...."I want to breed my GSD".
That's what I was going to say, but you know that half the wannabe breeders won't give a frog's fat patootie about what their dogs may produce, they just want puppies, money, an ego boost, or for their child to witness the miracle of birth, or whatever. :rolleyes:

However, there is still hope for the other half!
 

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As always, much to be learned or re-learned, as we look back in time to this 100 + years long dilemma. Everything Max worried aloud about as it was happening then still happens now, only now the gene pool is much larger, sadly made up of many more misfires than existed back then.

If only more folks cared to learn, and weren't out to just make a buck, things might be different, but I expect it the debates will go on, with plenty of examples of less than but pretty to impress those with more money than brains.

Just saying, I so enjoy threads like this. Thank You!
 

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I am posting to bookmark this thread. I'm learning a lot and loving it but much is still way over my head.

I do think many breeders are aware of a dog's faults but are blinded by greed. They do not have the integrity that I see in the breeders posting in this thread :thumbup:
 
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