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I responded to a post on Craigslist about a dog biting it's owner and I received this 'jewel' from someone out there. I just wanted to puke after I read it:

Quote:in the world of dog trainers teeth on a person is an absolute no no. i am an experienced trainer and i train koehler method. books at library and i trained a dog that bit a chicago policeman, my son and my husband.

these methods may seem harch for the non-committed but stick your fist down his throat untill he gags. he wanted part of you and now he has it and it is not very pleasant. use a training collar and leash and lift his back feet off the floor in the choaking mode. there is striking on the mussle with a dowel rod inside a piece of hose which you keep in your back pocket so this strick is not coming from you but from doggie god for biting.

the dog i trained not to bite was taller on his back legs so i had to put the leash over my shoulder and bend forward to get his back legs off the floor.

he was later shown in the us and canada in obedience and went with a handler in canada to be shown in coformation.a butifull dog and worth the effort to save him.

my st francis guide you in your efforts to save him. being a trainer for more than thirty years i was up to the challange and these methods are not for the faint of heart. they work if you are serious.try the koehler method books. i was taught by bill koehler god rest his soul.
I emailed back and said I pity any dog they put their hands on and sure hope they don't have kids.
 

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My God that is horrible advice, and truly makes me feel sick inside.
 

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my tummy is so upset after reading this! How disgusting- I would think that this is true animal cruelty and I too pity any animal or child that person lays a hand on!!
 

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this sounds like someone who was posting on this board a while back, some thought it was a troll (and it could have been), but something about the speech pattern of the writing here and the "30 years as a trainer" reminds me of this poster. cannot for the life of me remember the screen name.

very old school, ancient, and cruel, training methods that's for sure.
 

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I'm not a purely positive trainer but I am not that corrective either!
 

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What happens to the *relationship* in a viewpoint like this? The bond with the dog? This makes me sick. So many of us use positive methods to teach, guide, shape behaviors, and then corrections when needed. This person's those old methods are so outdated. Getting a dog to WANT to do something-- seeing him or her reach forward towards guessing the right thing to do, is such a joy for us both. The person here is missing out on the fun of working together, seeing the dog want to participate as a team with us.
 

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I think the language skills give us plenty of insight with which to judge the advice (as if we needed any). I can't even conceive of someone doing this.
 

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Wow... to imagine that someone would want to do that to a dog, and describe it with such horrible spelling and grammar, is disgusting.
 

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How many poor dogs has this person ruined in their 30 years of "professionally" training?
SickO
I responded to a craigslist ad requesting Cesar Milan books, and let them know there were better trainers, books out there and listed some. This person replied to me thanking me for the info. I would have felt bad if they went w/ CM methods only, and he isn't that bad!
This person should be banished from the dog world.
 

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Yuck.
 

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I'm not sure if I'd rather bite that 'trainer' or stuff a timberland down their throat.
 

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I hope this person tries her methods on the "right" dog, then we all will have a good last laugh.
 

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Woah... That is sick.

It's sad that some poor dog is going to be subjected to this type of abuse.
 

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When I first started seriously training, 20 years ago, the only trainers in the area were using the Koehler method. I was told to buy the first book (still have it, refuse to sell or give it to anyone to use, will burn it first) and that's how I was taught to train. The things that person is saying are typical Koehler method ways of "fixing" an aggression problem. Of course, they see any sort of grumbling/hackling/lip lifted/biting as aggression that needs to be basically beat out of the dog. Relationship is not important to this kind of training - it's basically "I'm the boss, you are the subservient, you are not to do anything unless I say so, and when I say so you better do it immediately or you're going to be in pain".

I will admit to using some pretty harsh techniques when I started. All training was taught with corrections as a major part of the training. It was effective but it produced dogs who responded because they were fearful of the consequence (which is the entire basis for training with corrections). And the dogs learned to live with it, and would appear fairly happy to people who didn't really understand what a happy dog looked like (or based their idea of a happy dog on what their dogs looked like).

I know FOR A FACT that I now get better results using gentler methods. My dogs heel with more energy and excitement. I have fewer aggression problems (not uncommon to see a force-trained dog become aggressive at some point - I've seen it many times). And when it comes to working with aggressive dogs, you can work through most aggression problems using a minimal amount of corrections and do it quite successfully.

One thing I will say .. the idea that when a dog bites, you push your hand into their mouth is actually a concept that can work well if you use it with a young dog who is too mouthy. Dogs often learn to nip at hands that get pulled away from them quickly, so with my young dogs (or even my older dogs who are grabbing treats too fast and nipping my fingers in the process) I will often start giving them their treats by stuffing my hand into their mouth and they end up backing away from me to take the treat gently. It isn't hard or painful to the dog. I don't stuff my fist down their throat as this person suggests. But for those of you with young mouthy dogs, pushing the treats into their mouths does help them learn to back off with their teeth.

Back to the Koehler method - I am amazed at how many people still use his methods. Someone on a training list that I am subscribed too just posted about the Koehler method and teaching attention with the choke collar and long line, and she's someone with a lot of years of experience. But by her posts, she pretty much refused to use gentler methods. She figures what she does now works for her and actually thinks that she's kinder than people who train using positive reinforcement methods. I find that is pretty common too - people fool themselves into thinking that the corrections are "kind" when in all honesty much of what they train could be taught with little or no correction (if the person was willing to learn kinder methods).

I feel for the poor dogs that have to submit to these archaic techniques.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
 

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Originally Posted By: Lauri & The Gangsure hope they don't have kids.
tell me about it - who would help them with their spelling and grammar homework
 

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I don't work with aggressive dogs who want to bite anything and anyone. But I would like to know how to fix aggression just out of interest. This lady talk about sticking your hand down their throat and beating them with a stick, that's one "method". How would you guys do it?

How would you start...what will you do, etc?

Sorry if this is OT.
 
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