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With all the talk of new breeders and paperd dogs I've been thinking. Let's say for descusin purposes the dog is a Unpapere Black and Tan Female BYB. And a person buys the dog and it turns out to be 100%the perfect GSD. The owner who bought the dog did everything right. The dog has its CGC. Is titled in SHCH, Herding, obidiance. Has OFA exelent hips/elbows. And has passed all health tests. And the owner desides to breed the bitch. Would you allow your male to stud a un registerd bitch despite all the titals and healh testing? Or would you buy a pup knowing it can not be registerd despite mom being so great. (No I'm not planing on breeding my Bella this is just a descusion).
 

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Interesting question, I am interested in the responses to come.
 

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No I would NOT breed.

Problem is genetics. Though you may have the perfect dog, you couldn't know that all it's littermates had EPI, or allergies. Or that both grandparent dogs had Hip Dysplasia. Or the sire of the father was put down at 3 years old for aggression issues...........................

This is a SHORT list of some of the genetic issues that's known to be in the breed, and breeders who are responsible and doing there best still have issues crop up, that's with them knowing as well as they can the background/history/genetics of dogs they choose: German Shepherd Dog Health Problems

The German Shepherd Dog has some major health problems, ranging from hip dysplasia, to elbow dysplasia, and some minor concerns such as Panosteitis, von Willebrand's Disease, progressive posterior paresis, cauda equina, pyotraumatic dermatitis, skin allergies, malignant neoplasms, pannus cataract, dreaded gastric torsion, perianal fistulas, cardiomyopathy and occasionally seen Pancreatic enzyme insufficiency.

Health guarantees: If you are looking for a German Shepherd puppy, it is very important to find a reputable German Shepherd breeder, one who cares about the breed and who has all breeding stock tested and cleared for various genetic problems before breeding. It is only by testing and breeding cleared specimens that these diseases will be brought under control. We suggest that you start your search with the breed clubs. Most clubs have a code of ethics and while it doesn't guarantee a perfect puppy, it's a lot better than dealing with breeders who don't know or care about such matters.

Canine hip dysplasia (CHD): is a skeletal problem, an abnormal development of the hip joint where the head of the femur does not fit snugly into the pelvic socket. It is characterized by a shallow acetabulum (the "cup" of the hip joint) and changes in the shape of the femoral head (the "ball" of the hip joint). These changes may occur due to excessive looseness in the hip joint. Hip dysplasia can exist with or without clinical signs. When dogs exhibit symptoms of hip dysplasia they usually are in pain and lame on one or both rear legs. Severe arthritis can develop as a result of the malformation of the hip joint and this results in pain as the disease progresses. See effective canine arthritis treatment More Hip Dysplasia information. See the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals OFA See the University of Pennsylvania Hip Improvement Program PennHIP You don't have to wait until your dog exhibits symptoms. You can take steps now to minimize the chances your dog will suffer arthritic pain due to hip dysplasia. Treating your pet's impending or existing arthritis.

Elbow Dysplasia (ununited anconeal process): Due perhaps to improper development (different growth rates) of the three bones making up the elbow, the joint is lax or loose and in mildly affected dogs leads to painful arthritis. Whereas in severly affected dogs, osteochondritis dissecans (OCD), fragmented medial coronoid processes and united anconeal processes can result from the stress in the joint. Treatments involve surgical correction if possible, or medical management using asprin and other anti-inflammatory drugs.

Panosteitis: is a skeletal problem of spontaneous lamness and pain, usually in large breed dogs in the 5 to 14 month age range and affecting male dogs more commonly than females. The pain can come and go and last up to two months (sometimes up to a year). Analgesic medications like aspirin can be be helpful in controling the pain. In severe cases, corticosteroids may provide relief. Eventually the conditiont goes away.

von Willebrand's Disease (vWD): is a blood disorder, a deficiency in clotting factor VIII antigen (von Willebrand factor). Dogs affected by the disease do not effectively utilize their platelets for blood clotting and therefore are more likely to have bleeding episodes associated with trauma or surgery.

Progressive posterior paresis: is a neural condition, a paralysis of one or both hind legs.

Cauda equina syndrome: is a neural condition. The cauda equina (CE) is formed by nerve roots caudal to the level of spinal cord termination. Cauda equina syndrome (CES) has been defined as low back pain.

Pyotraumatic dermatitis ("hot spots"): is one of two types of bacterial infections confined to the surface of the skin (the other being "skin fold dermatitis"). It is caused by allergies, parasites and poor grooming.

Skin allergies: Allergies in pets, are one of the most common causes of skin conditions. Allergies can be difficult to control and are chronic in nature. There are 3 main types of allergies in relation to skin conditions. It is possible for a pet to have a combination of all 3 allergy types: 1. Food Allergy; 2. Flea Allergy Dermatitis (FAD); 3. Atopy, or Allergic Inhaled Dermatitis.

Malignant Neoplasms (abnormal growth of tissue or tumor): A malignant neoplasm is infiltrative with metastatic potential. Therapy depends largely on the type of tumor, its location and size, and symptoms of the animal. With Canine Malignant Lymphoma, cyclic combination chemotherapy can achieve long-term remission.

Pannus cataract (chronic superficial keratitis): Chronic immune mediated keratoconjunctivitis sicca (CIKS) is the newer name for pannus. It is a serious inflammation of the cornea and is potentially blinding.

Gastric Torsion - or Bloat (Gastric dilatation volvulus GDV): This condition is caused by a twisting of the stomach and thus trapping the stomach contents and gases resulting in a rapid swelling of the abdomen accompanied by pain and eventual death if untreated. It is a top priority emergency with immediate veterinarian action required. This is a predicament most common in large deep chested breeds. Anyone owning a deep chested breed, susceptible to bloat should be prepared by recording and posting the exact emergency procedures for the veterinary hospital they go to - who to call after hours, how to get to emergency clinics or alternative facilities and what payment arrangements those facilities will require.

Perianal Fistulas PFs: are abnormal openings around the dog's anal area which soon get badly infected and can be painful. They may or may not emit a foul smelling odor. The dog is often observed to scoot along the ground. This is a very serious disease and early detection and treatment is very important.

Cardiomyopathy: is a general term meaning "disease of the heart muscle". There are various types of cardiomyopathy, one being "Dilated Cardiomyopathy" (DCM), opposed to "Hypertrophic" Cardiomyopathy" (where the heart walls thicken instead of becoming thin). Cardiomyopathy is a serious problem in many breeds but especially in the Doberman Pinscher breed.

Pancreatic Enzyme Insufficiency (PEI): is a digestive problem where the Pancreas does noot produce sufficient digestive enzymes which results in poor nutrient absorption.

German Shepherd Dog Medical Conditions

Canine Genetic Disorders

There are 532 genetic diseases listed in Dr. Padgett’s book, The Control of Canine Genetic Disease. He includes 308 breeds from the AKC and UKC registries. Of these 532 genetic diseases, the German Shepherd Dog is predisposed to 132 of them – the only breeds predisposed to more are the mixed breeds and the Poodles.
 

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+1 to everything MaggieRoseLee said.
 

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No I would NOT breed.

Problem is genetics. Though you may have the perfect dog, you couldn't know that all it's littermates had EPI, or allergies. Or that both grandparent dogs had Hip Dysplasia. Or the sire of the father was put down at 3 years old for aggression issues...........................

This is a SHORT list of some of the genetic issues that's known to be in the breed, and breeders who are responsible and doing there best still have issues crop up, that's with them knowing as well as they can the background/history/genetics of dogs they choose: German Shepherd Dog Health Problems

The German Shepherd Dog

has some major health problems, ranging from hip dysplasia,

to elbow dysplasia,

and some minor concerns such as Panosteitis,

von Willebrand's Disease,

progressive posterior paresis,

cauda equina,

pyotraumatic dermatitis,

skin allergies,

malignant neoplasms,

pannus cataract,

dreaded gastric torsion,

perianal fistulas,

cardiomyopathy

and occasionally seen Pancreatic enzyme insufficiency.

See the descriptions below.

German Shepherd Dog - Health Problems

Health guarantees:

If you are looking for a German Shepherd puppy, it is very important to find a reputable German Shepherd breeder, one who cares about the breed and who has all breeding stock tested and cleared for various genetic problems before breeding. It is only by testing and breeding cleared specimens that these diseases will be brought under control. We suggest that you start your search with the breed clubs. Most clubs have a code of ethics and while it doesn't guarantee a perfect puppy, it's a lot better than dealing with breeders who don't know or care about such matters.
Canine hip dysplasia (CHD):

is a skeletal problem, an abnormal development of the hip joint where the head of the femur does not fit snugly into the pelvic socket. It is characterized by a shallow acetabulum (the "cup" of the hip joint) and changes in the shape of the femoral head (the "ball" of the hip joint). These changes may occur due to excessive looseness in the hip joint. Hip dysplasia can exist with or without clinical signs. When dogs exhibit symptoms of hip dysplasia they usually are in pain and lame on one or both rear legs. Severe arthritis can develop as a result of the malformation of the hip joint and this results in pain as the disease progresses. See effective canine arthritis treatment More Hip Dysplasia information. See the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals OFA See the University of Pennsylvania Hip Improvement Program PennHIP You don't have to wait until your dog exhibits symptoms. You can take steps now to minimize the chances your dog will suffer arthritic pain due to hip dysplasia. Treating your pet's impending or existing arthritis.
Elbow Dysplasia (ununited anconeal process):

Due perhaps to improper development (different growth rates) of the three bones making up the elbow, the joint is lax or loose and in mildly affected dogs leads to painful arthritis. Whereas in severly affected dogs, osteochondritis dissecans (OCD), fragmented medial coronoid processes and united anconeal processes can result from the stress in the joint. More information. Treatments involve surgical correction if possible, or medical management using asprin and other anti-inflammatory drugs. See effective Osteoarthritis treatment.
Panosteitis:

is a skeletal problem of spontaneous lamness and pain, usually in large breed dogs in the 5 to 14 month age range and affecting male dogs more commonly than females. The pain can come and go and last up to two months (sometimes up to a year). Analgesic medications like aspirin can be be helpful in controling the pain. In severe cases, corticosteroids may provide relief. Eventually the conditiont goes away. More information.
von Willebrand's Disease (vWD):

is a blood disorder, a deficiency in clotting factor VIII antigen (von Willebrand factor). Dogs affected by the disease do not effectively utilize their platelets for blood clotting and therefore are more likely to have bleeding episodes associated with trauma or surgery.
More information.
Progressive posterior paresis:

is a neural condition, a paralysis of one or both hind legs.
Cauda equina syndrome:

is a neural condition. The cauda equina (CE) is formed by nerve roots caudal to the level of spinal cord termination. Cauda equina syndrome (CES) has been defined as low back pain.
Pyotraumatic dermatitis ("hot spots"):

is one of two types of bacterial infections confined to the surface of the skin (the other being "skin fold dermatitis"). It is caused by allergies, parasites and poor grooming. More information and treatment.
Skin allergies:

Allergies in pets, are one of the most common causes of skin conditions. Allergies can be difficult to control and are chronic in nature. There are 3 main types of allergies in relation to skin conditions. It is possible for a pet to have a combination of all 3 allergy types: 1. Food Allergy; 2. Flea Allergy Dermatitis (FAD); 3. Atopy, or Allergic Inhaled Dermatitis. More detailed information.
Malignant Neoplasms (abnormal growth of tissue or tumor):

A malignant neoplasm is infiltrative with metastatic potential. Therapy depends largely on the type of tumor, its location and size, and symptoms of the animal. With Canine Malignant Lymphoma, cyclic combination chemotherapy can achieve long-term remission.
Pannus cataract (chronic superficial keratitis):

Chronic immune mediated keratoconjunctivitis sicca (CIKS) is the newer name for pannus. It is a serious inflammation of the cornea and is potentially blinding.
Gastric Torsion - or Bloat (Gastric dilatation volvulus GDV):

This condition is caused by a twisting of the stomach and thus trapping the stomach contents and gases resulting in a rapid swelling of the abdomen accompanied by pain and eventual death if untreated. It is a top priority emergency

with immediate veterinarian action required. This is a predicament most common in large deep chested breeds. Anyone owning a deep chested breed, susceptible to bloat should be prepared by recording and posting the exact emergency procedures

for the veterinary hospital they go to - who to call after hours, how to get to emergency clinics or alternative facilities and what payment arrangements those facilities will require. More information.
Perianal Fistulas PFs:

are abnormal openings around the dog's anal area which soon get badly infected and can be painful. They may or may not emit a foul smelling odor. The dog is often observed to scoot along the ground. This is a very serious disease and early detection and treatment is very important.
Cardiomyopathy:

is a general term meaning "disease of the heart muscle". There are various types of cardiomyopathy, one being "Dilated Cardiomyopathy" (DCM), opposed to "Hypertrophic" Cardiomyopathy" (where the heart walls thicken instead of becoming thin). Cardiomyopathy is a serious problem in many breeds but especially in the Doberman Pinscher breed. More information.
Pancreatic Enzyme Insufficiency (PEI):

is a digestive problem where the Pancreas does noot produce sufficient digestive enzymes which results in poor nutrient absorption.
Other Documented Problems:

Existing congenital and hereditary diseases - non prioritized.
It needs repeating.
 

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I want to know about more than bitch and sire when I'm looking to buy a pup. In this situation I won't know anything about the bitch's ancestry. She may have rated good hip scores but did she have a littermate with poor hips? She may have many titles under her belt, but did her dam have only so-so nerves?

With any breeding you are at the mercy of the genetic roll of the dice, however, I like to stack the deck in my favor as much as I can. To me, that means working with a breeder that has access to the genetic history of their dogs.
 

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If I had a dog, I would not breed it to a female without papers. This, for a number of reasons. First, without papers, how do I know for sure that I am not breeding a bitch that is closely related to my dog, or is out of lines that I really do not want to breed from for one reason or another.

Secondly, there are enough unregistered dogs in pounds and rescues, that we do not need to add to the population dogs that will be given away or sold for a pittance because they do not have paperwork in order. It is not about making money. It is about finding good homes for these dogs. While some owners out there will take a $200 dog and treat it the same as their $1500 dog or someone else's pedigree dog, there are a lot more people out there, that will go the extra mile for a dog that cost $1000 and up, will pay for a heavy vet expenditure, will find a trainer, will make sure the place they are moving to allows dogs/GSDs. If the dog is not registrateable, the vast majority of your better buyers are no longer interested.

And, then what is the purpose of breeding? If I had a farm and was raising herding dogs to do a job on my farm, and that bitch was an excellent herding dog, then maybe I would breed to her. But I do not have a farm, and the only reason I am breeding dogs is to produce dogs that conform to the standard and will improve my lines. Which means, I am breeding dogs to produce breeding dogs. Dogs without papers are simply not breeding dogs.

Why does the dog NOT have papers? Did someone buy the dog on a limited registration -- it would be unethical to breed this dog. Buying a dog out of a dog with limited registration would, for me, also be unethical. Someone up the line, bought a dog as a pet and started breeding away. So, I would not want to encourage that.

There are enough GSDs out there, that you can find them every bit as good as the one mentioned, and with the paperwork in order.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Wonderful responses Ilove the listing of all the genetic disorders :). But just remeber that *mom* was tested for everything that could be tested and passed all health 100%. And has none of the disorders listed. Remember this is the perfect female spescimin and is everything a GSD should be. And what everyone wants. And that this dog kicks Rin Tin Tins butt. There is no other like her anywhere. ;) then what would your answer be?
 

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The issue is that you don't know the history of mom. It doesn't matter how nice ONE dog is. What matters is the history of the line.

This, we found out after the fact, was the case with the sire/dam of our dear Kodi.

A nice sire was bred to a crappy dam with no history, and produced a gorgous wonderful temperment dog with what turned out to be life ending disabilities.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I chose the dog not to have papers because one even with being 100% perfect as you said you don't know the back ground. And because if she was papered there would have been more yeses. And I wanted to create a desusin. I orignaly wanted to use a rescue as a example but most rescues regire spay and that would defeat the descuion. :)
 

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I chose the dog not to have papers because one even with being 100% perfect as you said you don't know the back ground. And because if she was papered there would have been more yeses. And I wanted to create a desusin. I orignaly wanted to use a rescue as a example but most rescues regire spay and that would defeat the descuion. :)
Many rural shelters do not alter prior to placement, and at best have a "spay neuter contract" one must sign to adopt. They typically do not have the manpower to follow up on these, nor is it worth the paper it's printed on since they can breed the dog the minute they take it home.

I've pulled many dogs over the years from small rural shelters (for foster and placement) and although I of course altered all the dogs, not a single person ever followed up on them (as to be expected, how can they really be expected to follow up on all those dogs when they already have their plates full).
 

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But just remeber that *mom* was tested for everything that could be tested and passed all health 100%.
Let's talk about genetics.

It's perfectly possible for a bitch with excellent hips and elbows and otherwise good health to pass down a genetic mess to the pups she produces, including bad hips, von Willebrand's disease, you name it.

Just because the bitch is healthy, titled, and has no issues does not mean that she should be bred - you really do need to know more about her background. You need to know her dam/sire. You need to know what issues there are in those lines. What issues there are in their progeny.

If you have a bitch of unknown parentage, you can health test her all you want and she can check out perfectly healthy and have absolutely no issues - but still produce pups with issues.

So, that would be a huge, resounding NO to breeding from me as well.

On a side note, spell-check is your friend. :)
 

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No because you have no idea what is lurking behind her in the pedigree - could be something major or nothing at all. Point is you don't know and no one with a nice male would bother breeding to an unpapered bitch. The puppies would not be worth much so what would have been the point of all the testing and titling on mom without her having papers - some of the titles you refer to require the dog be papered anyway.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Sorry I don't have spell check on my Phone and I also have learning disabilitys. I tend to spell it like it sounds. I apoligize I know it makes my posts harder to understand. I'm really not as dumb as my spelling makes me look :(
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I also think that people wanting to breed there female jus to have a pup be direted here. There have been several posts lately of wanting there female to have a litter. And almost pimping the dog out. And almost every one asks is the dog healthy what is she bringing to the breed. Is the dog titled? They all get asked these ?s and more. I want them to see no matter how great your dog is to you it don't mean that they should all get to produce a litter.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
As I said this is a fantisy so every thing is WHAT IF. Type thing. Because we all know that if this female came from a well known kennel and was AKC and Dule reg with CanKC. Everyone would want a pup or would love use there stud with her.
 

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Would you allow your male to stud a un registered bitch
Oh geesh, you guys are no fun. This is a hypothetical question and we're talking about a PERFECT in every way, including genetically, dog.

Today we know the proper response to this question is no, you should not allow your stud to be used. Everyone has pretty much stated all the valid reasons why it shouldn't be done, but there are always going to be people looking for the perfect breed...and there will always be people who don't play by the rules and mix breeds trying to find that perfect specimen.

Should a breeder pass up the opportunity to develop a line of perfect dogs because of paper?

Let's face it, most modern breeds were created or at least refined by people with a vision. GSD's haven't been wandering the planet since the beginning of time they're a relatively new breed and they're designed by man.

The founder of the breed had a vision for what the perfect shepherding dog should be. When he found a male that fit this perfect image he began a breeding program using dogs he felt would refine and improve the "new" breed. The German Shepherd was born and man has continued to refine, manipulate and perfect, or not, the breed for 100 years.

If that genetically perfect female really existed I wouldn't think less of a breeder for using her as they tried to develop a new breed or improve on the one we have.
 

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Oh geesh, you guys are no fun. This is a hypothetical question and we're talking about a PERFECT in every way, including genetically, dog.
If that genetically perfect female really existed, I wouldn't think less of a breeder for using her as they tried to develop a new breed or improve on the one we have.
Problem is you don't actually know that she is genetically perfect. She does not have any health concerns or diseases but she could be a carrier and you wouldn't know it because you don't have the background.

I don't know if it works this way with dog genetics, but some human diseases skip generations. If you don't know the parents or grand parents history, then there is no way to know that this is a genetically perfect dog.
 

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Sorry I don't have spell check on my Phone and I also have learning disabilitys. I tend to spell it like it sounds. I apoligize I know it makes my posts harder to understand. I'm really not as dumb as my spelling makes me look :(
Funny - I was thinking how easy it was to read because it looks like it sounds! :) Don't feel like you have to apologize - and we all know a disability is not an indication of smarts! :hug:

And would not breed her (of course I wouldn't) because of the unknowns. Because the knowns are great, but could be trumped by something awful couldn't they?
 

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I agree with all the reasons everyone has posted for not breeding-but breeding isn't everything-look how great the dog turned out-thats wonderful
 
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