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Discussion Starter #1
Cookies and milk if you make it through all this!

When I bought Ruger it was as a pet quality pup with limited AKC registration. I spoke with his breeder about my intended plans for him (competitions other than confo), and we spoke about the male they kept from the same litter for potential future breeding purposes. They were looking into competing with him in Conformation (though he is a more "square" dog, they were still going to get him out there), and maybe some other "sports" to title him.

Well, as Ruger matures, I feel that he is a GSD who would be worth putting into the confo ring. I also, after having spoken to the breeder (we keep in touch), feel that Ruger has a better temperament/mindset and is a better dog overall than the male they retained.

They have also taken no steps towards doing anything with the male they retained, and do not sound at all like they are going to do anything with him. I find this really disappointing, because they do go through the trouble of health testing (hips and elbows and good hips 5 gens back in pedigree) their female(s) (they only bred one female, she's had two litters and is slated to be spayed), and they sent her out to a stud who comes from good working/protection Czech lines (also with good hips all throughout 5 gens and himself as well), but are doing nothing else with what are actually well bred dogs!

I know this is not my problem, but it's frustrating just the same. I understand that they are a small hobby breeder, but they also have sounded like eventually they'd like to expand their program and become better recognized. Well, that's not going to happen if they don't get their dogs out there as other than pets (which I believe Ruger is the only one who is likely to do anything, I believe the rest went to active, but still pet, homes).

*sigh* I got a better quality dog than I expected as far as confo goes, and yes, now I realize I do want to show that off, as well as get these people's good selection and hard work recognized. Is that so bad? So I sent them this email after speaking with the Mrs on the phone:

Hello Karen and Andrew! Hopefully I can explain here a little clearer what I had in mind regarding Ruger and his registration/my hopes for him.

I understand your husband's desire to keep registration limited so that your pups don't produce unwanted/unnecessary litters, and also respect that. Limiting registration is a good way to do dissuade people from breeding your pups once they mature.

What I was hoping to do was this:

I would like to get full registration granted for Ruger, so that I can show him in AKC conformation shows. He is not the type that is winning in the ring right now, but I have had encouragement to show him in the confo ring despite that. This is something I've wanted to do, but haven't had the right dog, or the confidence to do, until now.

Ruger is turning into a fine example of the breed, and in the event that you don't show Wolf (or even if you do), it's a great opportunity to get your name and your dogs out there. As Ruger has matured, I feel that it's not just his looks, but his personality as well that makes him a good example of how a German Shepherd should be. He has great bone, a gorgeous head, and a noble, intelligent expression even when he is being a silly puppy.


I will be willing to pay you an additional $200, making Ruger's purchase price $1000 for a "show quality" pup, as well as pay for whatever fee may be charged by the AKC to change him to full registration (actually, I have not sent in his AKC papers yet, because I couldn't decide on a registered name, so I don't know how this effects that).

I have to say, that when I got Ruger I was looking for a dog mainly to do competitions along the lines of agility/working dog (which he could do with limited registration), but as he matures, I feel that he may be beyond my (and maybe even your) expectations. I don't judge German Shepherds lightly, because I feel that this is a breed that needs as much help in the right direction as possible, and Ruger is a step in that direction. I'm proud to tell people when they ask, where he came from.

Please think this over. I have no plans to use Ruger as a stud, though if you decided as he matures that he's a good candidate for your DDR female, I'd obviously be willing to do that (if he clears his hip/elbow testing at 2 years). All I really want is the chance to get into the confo ring with him and show what a *real* German Shepherd should look like. This is a breed I love and have a passion for, and with your help, and Ruger's, I feel that this is a chance to make a positive change in the breed. Your breeding has produced a great dog, and I'm proud to call him mine.

You can reply via email, or call me if you like.

Take care, and good luck with the kids! (All of them!).

~Krystal and Ruger


I have had it suggested to me that I could limited Reg him with the AKC and then fully register him with the UKC, so I could show him in confo and then if I chose to, breed him and the pups would be registerable, but the goal here isn't breeding, it's showing. And I would also feel kinda dishonest doing that, honestly. Also, I looked up UKC shows and there are *no* conformation shows in/around my area (I would have to travel easily about 4 hours for the "closest" show). *sigh* Sorry for the rant, I just had to vent/have a pity party.

Milk and cookies for anyone who trudged through this whole thing and can give advice or relate!
 

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The breeders here can give you some better answers on the legal logistics. Isn't there some sort of contract in the breeding world where his breeder would maintain control over who he's bred to - if ever? Maybe I'm thinking of co-ownership, which probably isn't what you want.
 

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Where are my milk and cookies?

Maybe if you emphasized that they could be in total control of the breeding part (if it ever comes to that).

But it sounds very well written. Too bad there's no way to show conformation without the breeder giving you full rights.
 

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The breeders here can give you some better answers on the legal logistics. Isn't there some sort of contract in the breeding world where his breeder would maintain control over who he's bred to - if ever? Maybe I'm thinking of co-ownership, which probably isn't what you want.
It's not "some contract." There isn't a defined show quality/full registration standard contract that every breeder requires their buyers to sign. It's true that some breeders, when selling a dog on full registration, will require certain stipulations be met, may require that the dog retain a portion of their kennel name in its registered name, may require all of the breeding rights, and may require approval/stipulations for females to which the dog is bred. However, not all breeders require those stipulations in their agreement.

I don't see anything wrong with sending your dog's breeder that note asking about showing him in conformation/lifting limited reg. status. They could say, "no," or they could state requirements to be met prior to lifting the status.

I know we signed a contract with Grimmies' breeder that goes into specifics about Full Registration/Show Quality, etc. She requires that Grimmies passes OFA hips and elbows as well as receive his CGC and at least one [working] title whether it be FH or RN, etc. before the consideration to lift L.R. is granted. That doesn't mean that if Grimmies comes back OFA hips/elbows good, CGC, and his RN title that he will automatically have his L.R. lifted, but it's merely that consideration is given TO lift it. His breeder wants to make sure that the dogs produced by her breeding meet the stipulations for the "all-around dog."

Are there any non-AKC sanctioned "fun shows" you can enter Ruger in to see how he does? There are some charity "fun shows" in our area that have conformation classes. I don't think they have set requirements like Full AKC Reg. or even requirements regarding neutered animals either because it's...a "fun show." Maybe you can find a conformation judge in your area to take a look at Ruger, etc.?

We had a conformation judge and long-time (40 yrs.) German Shepherd breeder compliment us on Grimmies when Grimmies was 10 months old saying he was "one of the best looking German Shepherds she's ever seen and definitely one of the best looking German Shepherds she's seen recently." :hug: We were VERY proud, and this was when we took him to his first dog show (he did not compete in it. We were meeting another breeder of AmStaffs who was showing her dogs that day.)

White Chocolate Macadamian Nut, please ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
It does kill me a bit. It is my fault for saying that I didn't have plans to show Ruger confo so limited reg. would be fine, but I also had no way of knowing at 5 months old that he would be maturing into (what I think is) such a good example of the breed standard.

I would not say total control of the breeding part, but I would be more than willing to give them a lot of say, or run any potential breedings by them.

I could go the co-ownership route, but I almost feel like they would try to take advantage of that situation, maybe without even realizing it. Or they could potentially hold us back.

I will have to accept that Ruger will not be able to show in confo unless, when he's two, I get him all health cleared and can then convince them that he should be full registered so he can show (I know some dogs do not even begin to show until they're older and past the "gangly puppy" stage), and that if he were to be bred ever, that it would only be to titled, health cleared females. *sigh* Still, at least they are trying to do the right thing by only giving the pups limited registration to prevent over breeding and such. Still, there is a way around it which is to register with the UKC...I almost want to tell them that they should create mandatory spay/neuter contracts so that they have a 100% guarantee that none of their pups will be bred. I can't fault them for their good intentions, though it is frustrating!

SouthernThistle: now I have to add to this post! lol

What is a "fun match"? I have never heard of one, I only ever see AKC sanctioned shows around here. Also, the few judges/breeders of GSDs that I know of around here, tend to judge the Am. showline dogs, so I don't know if they would be so keen on Ruger's type (even though this is exactly what I expect to meet in the show ring as well, but that won't stop me from showing), and I don't know if it would help me in the long run to convince the breeder that Ruger is a good example of the breed (and their own goal!). I like the idea of maybe seeing if I title Ruger in something, it could be lifted, and I did (on the phone) suggest they consider it during one of our conversations, but they are very very hesitant to offer anything but limited reg. on any of their pups. Actually, it's the Mr. that is really "not comfortable" with it, the Mrs. is actually willing to consider it.

Another edit: I have contemplated still taking Ruger to a walk-in weekly breed handling class just for fun, it's ALMOST like a show, right? lol I figure, getting in the training in case a miracle occurs can't hurt!
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I'm kinda confused. Did the breeder already answer your letter and say no?

yes, this is the reply I got:

Hey, Krystal...

just wanted you to know that we got your e-mail, and Andrew doesn't think that it is something that he is comfortable doing at this time. I'll keep it, and we'll be in touch... we'll see...


Karen

I appreciate that they took the time to read it, and it's not an outright "No not ever ever ever", but it's still a bit frustrating. Especially when they kept a male themselves with the initial intention of showing him/keeping him as a stud and have since then taken no steps to get the dog trained or prepped for any type of showing/competing (I've asked when talking to them about how Wolf, the one they kept, is going with this type of thing). I've met a full sister from the prev. litter to these and she's a great little herding dog (they live on a farm) and works their goats and one bull quite naturally, it's just them getting themselves and their dogs out there and *proven*!

 

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SouthernThistle: now I have to add to this post! lol

What is a "fun match"? I have never heard of one, I only ever see AKC sanctioned shows around here. Also, the few judges/breeders of GSDs that I know of around here, tend to judge the Am. showline dogs, so I don't know if they would be so keen on Ruger's type (even though this is exactly what I expect to meet in the show ring as well, but that won't stop me from showing), and I don't know if it would help me in the long run to convince the breeder that Ruger is a good example of the breed (and their own goal!). I like the idea of maybe seeing if I title Ruger in something, it could be lifted, and I did (on the phone) suggest they consider it during one of our conversations, but they are very very hesitant to offer anything but limited reg. on any of their pups. Actually, it's the Mr. that is really "not comfortable" with it, the Mrs. is actually willing to consider it.
Well Grimm definitely is NOT American Showline nor is he the American Showline "type" :)

"Fun Shows" around here are mainly for people who may never have the intention of breeding their dog, may have gotten it as a rescue, etc. and "show" in conformation. They are generally done as fundraisers for animal shelters, humane societies, pet rescues, etc. and are judged by actual conformation judges. Of course, the "wins" don't count as anything than experience and fun.
 

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Humf, that's not what you wanted is it? Do you already have his registration or are they holding it for neuter - that's what Otto's breeder did.

I haven't touched base with them in a few years but there's a local club in providence - Obedience training club of rhode island. They used to meet at the K of C in north providence (right off 146).

If you're interested, let me know, I have contact the numbers on my fridge. There used to be a judge involved with the club, he did training sometimes.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I have his registration, I just have to send it in (I'm stuck between Hot Brass as a reg. name, or Powered by Pyrodex, to continue with the firearm theme!). The breeder did not stipulate that Ruger had to be neutered at any time, and I told them from the start I prefer to leave male dogs intact until at least age 4 for maturing (This is personal preference, but if the dog showed behavioural issues due to "testosterone overload" obviously he would be neutered sooner). So no, they aren't waiting for me to neuter Ruger.

Push comes to shove, I'd be happy enough doing fun shows if it benefited a charity or rescue organization, if for nothing else than the experience. It's not what I ideally want for Ruger or myself, but it's a start. And heck, maybe if the breeder saw what was out there and the benefits of promoting their dogs (or just working style but still conformationally "pretty" dogs) they would change their mind about his registration.

I will look into the Obed. club in N. Prov. Did he do show style training? Or just overall general training and some show? Thanks for the info!
 

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okay now, just asking...is it possible that they understand how really difficult/impossible it is for your line of dog to win in the american akc conformation show ring, that they feel you are not qualified to make the "what i think is" decision, and they might feel self conscious or embarrassed about having a dog of their breeding shown in what they feel is an inappropriate venue?

(this interpretation is based upon my understand that your dog is not american show lines).
 

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Discussion Starter #12
okay now, just asking...is it possible that they understand how really difficult/impossible it is for your line of dog to win in the american akc conformation show ring, that they feel you are not qualified to make the "what i think is" decision, and they might feel self conscious or embarrassed about having a dog of their breeding shown in what they feel is an inappropriate venue?

(this interpretation is based upon my understand that your dog is not american show lines).

Maybe, I have certainly been honest with them about the odds of Ruger doing well in an AKC confo ring, but also they stated that the reason they were breeding the way they are is to get more (to their interpretation of the standard) quality GSDs out there. Also, they are fairly new to the breed themselves, and (I hate to say it) I gave them a lot of information and sources that they did not even have themselves, so I don't think they'd think I was underqualified. I also explained to them that I feel Ru is closer to the original interpretation of the breed standard than a lot of these extremely angulated GSDs that are winning at shows are, and that their dogs and dogs like theirs need to be shown more, to remind people of what a not only beautiful, but functional GSD looks like (this is my opinion, not bashing all Am. line show dogs). They agree with me on that point, at least.

I feel that I am a bit more informed on the breed overall than they are (not through fault of their own, I've just been around GSDs for 12 years now, over their about 5 years, and have made an effort to know types/lines/showing, they're still learning but off to a good start).
 

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Have you considered entering your dog in some puppy matches. The dog can be any age. The thing is I showed Rush and Heidi in puppy matches. Rush won his class, Heidi took BOB and second in group. It was fun.

The thing is, after doing this a few times and with a couple of "wins" maybe you can portray to the breeder that you are serious about showing the dog.

Just a thought.

As a breeder, I would be inclined to ask a few questions, but would probably be ok with switching a limited registration to full registration. At that point, I think you have to allow the owners to make their own breeding decisions.

I think the best bet would be to wait until the ofa results are in and the dog is titled. Then switch the registration to full and wish them luck on the show carreer.

If they wish to show the pup prior to two years, maybe a special co-ownership, where you own the breeding rights of the dog until the dog completes the championship and gets his OFA done, may be a way to go.

If the breeder is not willing to work with you on this somehow, then I would think they are more concerned with you using their bloodlines for cheap, i.e. being competition to them.

In that case, continue to show your dog in puppy matches, and possibly UKC shows -- travel, and when you are ready to get another dog, make sure there are no strings attached, and use a different breeder.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Selzer, hope you don't mind, I sent you a PM for some clarification, but if I get the gist, those are very feasible, good ideas!

I have to say, my concerns about travel time/distance have now been taken away, because my wonderful, sweet boyfriend was listening to me talk to my mother about many UKC trials being a long haul for me to drive, and he said if I want to go, he'd gladly drive me to any show I wanted as long as I split gas costs!! :wub: And his truck is much more comfortable and spacious than my little S10 pickup! :D
 

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Aahhhhh --- wonderful of your bf! I was going to suggest try the UKC and make the drive.

Several reasons----

If you do want to show in any venue you are going to travel some. You won;t even find enough AKC shows locally to show enough to earn the needed points.

The UKC is much more relaxed and is probably more fun and less stressful for a beginner.

The UKC is more likey to appreciate a dog like Ruger than the AKC is.

Go for it with the UKC!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Thanks Kayos, I've heard that a lot about the UKC, appreciating a more square dog, and also being more relaxed without or with less professional handlers to compete against. Also, there aren't a TON of AKC shows in my area but there are usually a good amount within a 2 hour or so drive, the ones I've found "near" me for UKC are at least 5 hour drives, nonstop. :( I don't mind it, but at the same time my S10 would be cramped for me and Ruger. My darling boyfriend drives a Dodge Extended Cab pickup. :) Ruger loves to nap in the back seat!
 

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Ruger is a really handsome dude:))

I think you'd do much better with him in UKC if I'm reading right, you can do that correct? and along with the match idea, it may change the breeder's mind.

When I was showing my black dawg, when young, I hit every match available, they were every weekend within close driving distance, this was years ago, I was very lucky he always, always, took a group placement, (he was built like Ruger with more rear to him tho and a mix of german working/american show) anyhow, there are NO matches around like that anymore!

Which stinks:((( I used to love hitting those matches, alot of fun and good learning experience.

When I got him into the AKC ring, he took RWD every stinken time in the ring, got frustrating, because he was always a best man and never a groom:)))) At the time, black dogs were hard to show.

My suggestion is the above, ukc, hit some matches, and I HIGHLY suggest you enroll in some handling classes to learn the in's and outs, what to expect as well as a good learning tool for you and the dog..good luck
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Thanks so much for the advice Jakoda, I am going to have to do some match/puppy class hunting I think!

I've heard showing black dogs is hard. I was already considering what colors to wear to best highlight him, I am thinking something tan, or light buff, to make his color pop (though he looks stunning in Royal himself...and gold...LOL). there is a place near me that does have a $20 walk-in breed handling class, I definitely need help learning to stack him because I am SO uncoordinated, and getting him to stand still, etc etc etc. I practice at home sometimes for fun, but because I am so uncoordinated I don't do too much of it.
 
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