German Shepherds Forum banner

1 - 9 of 9 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
189 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Im sorry if this isnt in the correct place, but it does have to do with training methods.............

I had recieved a voucher for a free training session as a gift, and I asked the trainer a few basic questions to get a feel for him. He said they offer basic and advanced obedience, I told him my GSD just graduated advanced and he asked what I wanted to do with her and I told him Therapy dog and SAR....... He said "oh, search and rescue use e-collars"!!!!! I said, no they dont, because everything that I have read says the dog thinks its a game, and fun to find the person, not painful! Then when I left for a moment, he told the trainer I had been using "I can make a dog walk off leash right beside me with an e-collar on" (Im sorry, that just dont sit right with me), and she came back with "I can get a dog to walk beside me with no collar" (I love her whitt sometimes). After the other trainer left, my trainer had told me what had transpired.

I am now thinking that I will not use this free voucher, but keep working as much as possible with the trainer who helped me with her advance training as we tend to see things more eye to eye. I just am not sure if I would feel comfortable with handing this voucher to someone else. What would yall do?
 
G

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
Like the old saw goes, "You get what you pay for". That voucher is only fit to line a bird cage.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,884 Posts
The guy might be very good at beginning stuff. You could pass it along with a disclaimer so that the person knows what you opinion is. [I make remarks in some sections of training books that I pass on]. One session isn't very much time anyway. Sorry you didn't get "the right size" in this gift. But good for you to realize that it didn't fit.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,184 Posts
Originally Posted By: elfwolfe he asked what I wanted to do with her and I told him Therapy dog and SAR....... He said "oh, search and rescue use e-collars"!!!!! I said, no they dont, because everything that I have read says the dog thinks its a game, and fun to find the person, not painful!
Just to clarify a bit, an e-collar does not have to painful, and when used in the proper way does not diminish a dogs enthusiasm. When at the lowest settings it gives stimulation similar to a tug on a flat collar. I use one for certain things, and prior to doing so I put it on my arm and used it on myself. Just like most other training tools it can easily be abusive if used incorrectly.

When proofing a dog in drive to do advanced exercises, cleaning up and making obedience routines "crisp" (again in drive) or hiking/swimming with dogs off lead as an emergency backup they are useful.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
18,680 Posts
And many SAR trainers do use e-collars to work on certain training issues.
 

·
Administrator & Alpha Bitch of the Wild Bunch
Joined
·
13,571 Posts
Many SAR and sport trainers do use e-collars for working on specific issues, and also as a safety net (invisible leash that can't get wrapped around a tree or tangled in legs) as their dogs do a lot of off lead work at a good distance from their handlers, and sometimes out of sight. I've never encountered a hunting dog trainer who didn't use one for the same reasons.

That said, an ecollar must be used properly. There are right and wrong ways to do it. Done right, it can be an invaluable tool. Done wrong, it can be abusive and create a huge mess. It's not something that's needed or appropriate for every dog, and it's not something I'd consider to be suitable for most basic beginning obedience training.

I certainly wouldn't denounce a trainer who will use an ecollar (provided they know how to use it properly) or one who states that even SAR handlers use them (because that's quite true). I would be skeptical of any trainer who was set on using any one particular method or piece of equipment all dogs or who decides what the training methods and equipment for a dog must be before even working with that dog. No 2 dogs are alike, and thus it isn't good training to try to fit all dogs into one mold. Good trainers can effectively use a variety of tools and techniques and can evaluate each dog as an individual to determine what is the best combination to use for that specific dog.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,483 Posts
As others have said, I think many SAR handlers use e-collars to address things like crittering etc.

I am not an expert but I am not aware of any SAR training protocol that uses an e-collar to teach a dog to find people. As you have read/been told - that's not a compulsive behavior, the dog is working for a reward - find the person, play fetch! Or whatever their reward is. Which is why having a dog who has drive (to play ball, tug, etc) is so important. If he meant SAR handlers use e-collars for everything, I'd run the other way and toss that voucher in the trash.

The conversation, as relayed, mainly sounds like the two trainers have issues with each other's techniques and the new trainer was bragging about his methods.

Personally, I think e-collars have their place but I would never use one for basic obedience and I have real problems with people that try to use them as a short cut or power steering rather than making the effort to train the dog using positive reinforcers - which isn't any more difficult.

You see a lot of ego in dog training and it has no place. Dog training should be about the dog, using the techniques that work for that dog, having an open mind but also a kind heart.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
189 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Originally Posted By: pupresqI am not an expert but I am not aware of any SAR training protocol that uses an e-collar to teach a dog to find people. As you have read/been told - that's not a compulsive behavior, the dog is working for a reward - find the person, play fetch! Or whatever their reward is. Which is why having a dog who has drive (to play ball, tug, etc) is so important. If he meant SAR handlers use e-collars for everything, I'd run the other way and toss that voucher in the trash.
That is what I have always understood, the dog works for the reward of playing tug or with a ball. My understanding of what he was saying is that he used e-collars for everything (I got that impression from his comment about making a dog walk next to him off leash).

Quote:The conversation, as relayed, mainly sounds like the two trainers have issues with each other's techniques and the new trainer was bragging about his methods.
The trainer I have been using is understands that each dog has to be evaluated and needs its own training "plan", but she is uncomfortable with the things he said (and actually kept her mouth shut to avoid an argument), but I have never heard her speak ill about another trainer. She has seen e-collars used before, by trainers/handlers using them properly and agrees they can be an invaluable tool if used the right way, or they can be abused and ruin perfectly good dogs.


Quote:You see a lot of ego in dog training and it has no place. Dog training should be about the dog, using the techniques that work for that dog, having an open mind but also a kind heart.
I so agree with this.


Ok, I have been corrected on the e-collar usage.... I had always thought that the collars on SAR dogs were GPS trackers so that if the dog got out of sight the handler would still know exactly where it was. I do appoligize for that.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,341 Posts
There are some SAR people who are using Ecollars to teach dogs to do search work. I've never seen the results and I haven't ever spoken to any who do this, but they exist.

Ecollars are use in SAR work for many things, mostly getting recalls and stopping dogs from "crittering" chasing game. When introduced properly it can be used for many other purposes as well; making a dog more track sure, fixing false alerting behavior and more. It's an easy tool to learn to use but there are more myths and misconceptions that exist about the tool than any other in dog training.
 
1 - 9 of 9 Posts
Top