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Discussion Starter #1
Would you use a dog that was briefly started on Narcotics and has already a down&stare indication on HRD?
 

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Was the indication for the narcotics?

Depending on the dog, yeah not much chance if it being an issue. But I would probably use a different indication.


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I would train using a different word and a different indication.

Jocoyn, may have better insight into legalities and such. But I don't think it's an issue.


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To me it is no so much on the indication but the possible confusion in the dog.. because if he gets in a situation working a negative area for a longer amount of time (as most cadaver searches are) and hits on drugs after not finding HR - he may false alert to get his toy because he will still remember the narcotics.

Seeing as how we have searched for bodies in areas where we have seen needles on the ground.......and crime victims are often not dumped in the nicest places, it is a real possibility drugs (roaches, meth stuff, needles, etc.) may be present where a body would be found.

You would need to set up plenty of training problems WITH the full spectrum of narcotics to which he was exposed present to show the dog completely ignores them. They need to be completely extinguished and that is tough because it was the first thing he was imprinted on.

Which means you should be training with someone with a DEA license setting up distracters for you so you can document no response to drugs in the training logs.

I would ask David Frost or Ladylaw (Renee Utley) directly because both of them are LE and have been in court plenty of times. Most of my few finds have all been drowning victims and it is pretty straightforward there so I have never gone to court.
 

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I was told that if you train in cadaver that your dog can't be trained to find anything else-is that not true? What about if he is trained in Nose Work- could you do HRD as well?
Sorry to hijack, but didn't think it warranted a new thread.
 

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Thanks Jocoyn. I don't do HRD, but knew you would have good input. I figured changing the indication may work, so the two were different and if he indicated on narcotics it would easily distinguished.




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Discussion Starter #8
Yeah, I don't think that is going to happen. I can try and see if we have anyone in the Area that has a DEA license or possibly with some K9 Handlers. But I highly doubt it's going to happen.

I am going to wait for their responses too but it might be best to keep her live find.
 

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Some folks claim it can be done. I just want to be able to say "my dog has only been trained on the odor of human remains" and then expound on what that means and not have to muddle through all the explanations about a dog doing multi-tasking on different detection odors. I have not seen a definitive answer on nosework since those are odors unlikely to be encountered naturally (drugs pretty much being everywhere)

I would still try to extinguish it, but a live find dog is a whole lot less likely to have to explain something in court. We train frequently with the police and our HR hides are set in the same building as their narcotoics hides when we do building searches.

So we each have to see the dogs ignore the other odors though sometimes you might have an idea based on the body language of the dog.....they are not going to completely ignore the other odors just not work them to source and indicate.

So if you can train with the police and explain the situation that is good.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Yeah.

I talked to a friend who is on the team I'm going to join. I think it is best to stick with live find for now and get her operational within a year. I'm working MaDeuce on HRD, she is amazing absolutely amazing. Luckily I've got a lot of source I can work with which was provided by that team. I'm going to wait with my application until after the knee surgery. Indra is going to be the one I'm joining with while working Ma and Nala on the side.

What I do like is that that team is highly professional. It's been my absolute favorite team from the beginning and they not only certify in NYSFEDSAR but also in NAPWDA, so that is going to be a completely different ball game. They have years upon years upon years of experience in HRD.
 

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NAPWDA is good; Grim was certified annually since 2008 and Beau got his first cert through them in 2012. Fair Master Trainers though I have seen folks in tears. They don't mince words. It is an annual recertificaiton.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
NAPWDA is good; Grim was certified annually since 2008 and Beau got his first cert through them in 2012. Fair Master Trainers though I have seen folks in tears. They don't mince words. It is an annual recertificaiton.
Yeah. So I heard.
I was on a training search with the team leader not to long ago and had the honor of watching her young dog work in HRD. He had to work out three problems and it was absolutely amazing to see him work it out.

I was flanking one of their handler teams (my friend) on an actual search about a year ago. And that alone was a great experience. Their handler-teams absolutely rock.
It is a huge difference from my old team and nowhere near comparable.
 

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Well, first of all dual trained final resposes do NOT work regardless of what anyone says. that is making the dog make a decision which is not going to be consistent. ALso under pressure the dog will exhibit the respons that is comfortable.

dual trained scent dogs is NOT a good idea. If one ever searches a home,structure, vehicle, etc the HR alert can be easily challenged in court and the dog's first training on narcotics brought up as a possible. bad idea:)
 

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Mrs K

I know you like to take videos but if you are doing HRD with Ma Deuce, I would caution that most HRD folks I know take the video, review it for training purposes then destroy it.

Nothing like looking at some of the training videos that have wound up in court used to discredit a dog/handler. I have seen some at seminars.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Thanks.

I barely take videos from MaDeuce. I took one a couple of days ago and realized I can't set it private on the page so I deleted it after they watched it. She's definitely imprinted on it and knows what she's looking for. Still debating whether to use the down as indication or not. She's offering it.
So for now, I will completely focus on the indication. Luckily, I have enough source at home and am coached by credible people.
They just certified more dogs through IPWDA too.
In the very beginning, when I was with the other team, one Lady from a team close by was badmouthing them really bad. I figured if someone has so much hatred it can only be jealousy. From the very beginning that team has been very supportive of us.
I have a lot of respect for them and they have been nothing but supportive. Even now while I'm technically without a team, they keep supporting and training the dogs and I until I can join.

I need knee surgery. Right now, I'm not physically capable to work in their terrain and I honestly don't want to go out there and then realize that my knee doesn't hold up. So I'm waiting until after the surgery. Once I'm fixed up, my application goes in. I just love how supportive they are.
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
Well, first of all dual trained final resposes do NOT work regardless of what anyone says. that is making the dog make a decision which is not going to be consistent. ALso under pressure the dog will exhibit the respons that is comfortable.

dual trained scent dogs is NOT a good idea. If one ever searches a home,structure, vehicle, etc the HR alert can be easily challenged in court and the dog's first training on narcotics brought up as a possible. bad idea:)
Thank you. I think for Indra it is best to stick with live find at this point and get her operational by the end of next year.

They tried to change her live findr indication in Texas but luckily it had no impact whatsoever. She went straight back to the indication I taught her and it is rock solid.
By that time she will have to re-take the certification she has as well.
It is so frustrating. We were there and ready...but we will get there again.


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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
I want this to run by you guys. We had HRD out for MaDeuce today, since we've been working on the Indication.

Anyhow. Indra went out before MaDeuce, she had to find a bike, and then the Helper. Instead she found the bike, from there she went and found the source and two re-finds on it, and lead us down a steep hill, straight to the Source and from there I sent her back out to find the helper.

It was absolutely amazing and she worked hard on that. She was ranging far and wide, and at some point I heard the bell and knew where she was, than she came back and went straight down that Hill (no jumping this time, so maybe she has learned her lesson) and to the HRD. I was completely surprised since I expected that she had found the helper and was like "Show me, Show me" since I had no idea that the HRD was out where it was and there she was, with her nose, right above the source and like "I'm already there!"

Now in her case, is this a good or bad thing? I was once told that regardless of everything, a good Wilderness Dog, should be always capable of finding Wilderness Cadaver, not HRD but basically a freshly diseased person.

She is so far advanced by now, that I am actually very confident in my dog. I won't work her in HRD or make her an HRD dog, but if she finds the source and indicates on it, I'm not going to scold her either.

Any thoughts about that?
 

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Not a problem, IMO, just make sure she does not indicate on animal remains and she goes on to find the helper (which she did) which should always be her first priority.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Yeah, she has never done Animal Remains ever. She never went after any Game, Prey or indicated on anything less than Human.

MaDeuce is giving me a bit of a headache though. She's not focused enough yet.
 

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What Nancy saying is that if you are rewarding for some type of HR and not proofing off of animal remains she will most probably alert on animal remains. And, depending on the typw of HR training aid and the amount it will not help much with finding a full set of remains. The dog will most probably go to it anyway as it would be an anomaly
 
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