German Shepherds Forum banner

1 - 20 of 27 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
142 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hi y'all

So I've started the (14 week) lad on some scent pads. He's cottoned onto it well - he comes right back to the pad if his nose comes off. Also, looks like he also loosely tracks my in/out trail (when I go in to set the scent pad up) on the way in to do the pad. He moves rather fast but somewhat loosely with minor deviations along the track but the overall outcome is that he follows my trail - this is unintentional but interesting.

Anyway, is this TTD? How would one officially start training a dog this way? It seems better than IGP style.

Cheers
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,453 Posts
This is how to start a pup/dog for IGP tracking or foot step tracking. With foot step tracking you are using food drive to help reinforcement the association of the smell of crushed vegetation with food. How big are the scent pads and are you crushing all the vegetation in the scent pad? Tracking through drive is used for police or military dogs trying to hunt and apprehend someone. It allows a dog to follow his natural instincts, is not precise like FST and the dog tracks faster because his motivation is a bite and a fight at the end of the track. FST is as much of an obedience exercise as it is tracking as are all three phases of IGP. You could start with a foundation of FST with a pup and if he turns out to have the right drives for apprehension you could switch to TTD after some bite work training.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31,719 Posts
Hi y'all

So I've started the (14 week) lad on some scent pads. He's cottoned onto it well - he comes right back to the pad if his nose comes off. Also, looks like he also loosely tracks my in/out trail (when I go in to set the scent pad up) on the way in to do the pad. He moves rather fast but somewhat loosely with minor deviations along the track but the overall outcome is that he follows my trail - this is unintentional but interesting.

Anyway, is this TTD? How would one officially start training a dog this way? It seems better than IGP style.

Cheers
Air scenting is natural to dogs. IGP is very obedience based. How you track is based on what you want in the end. Sounds like your puppy has nice hunt drive. If your puppy is going right back to the pad then he's telling you he understands the difference in scent and it's time for the next step.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
142 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Air scenting is natural to dogs. IGP is very obedience based. How you track is based on what you want in the end. Sounds like your puppy has nice hunt drive. If your puppy is going right back to the pad then he's telling you he understands the difference in scent and it's time for the next step.
Awesome. What's thr next step? Start making longer and thinner rectangles instead of squares?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
142 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
This is how to start a pup/dog for IGP tracking or foot step tracking. With foot step tracking you are using food drive to help reinforcement the association of the smell of crushed vegetation with food. How big are the scent pads and are you crushing all the vegetation in the scent pad? Tracking through drive is used for police or military dogs trying to hunt and apprehend someone. It allows a dog to follow his natural instincts, is not precise like FST and the dog tracks faster because his motivation is a bite and a fight at the end of the track. FST is as much of an obedience exercise as it is tracking as are all three phases of IGP. You could start with a foundation of FST with a pup and if he turns out to have the right drives for apprehension you could switch to TTD after some bite work training.
Yes I am and they're going up a little from 1m2.

Am I right to keep using the same amount of food for larger areas now that that association is likely established for more hunting in less concentrated pads?

TTD sounds like us - I visited an IGP club at the weekend and I don't think it's for us. Rather another route.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31,719 Posts
Awesome. What's thr next step? Start making longer and thinner rectangles instead of squares?
For me, in IGP, it's starting tracks. Everyone does this differently. Footsteps, some lay solid tracks with serpentines. If it's IGP then you might want to follow Lars Lentz on facebook or join the IPO tracking page.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
142 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
For me, in IGP, it's starting tracks. Everyone does this differently. Footsteps, some lay solid tracks with serpentines. If it's IGP then you might want to follow Lars Lentz on facebook or join the IPO tracking page.
I don't have Facey 😭
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
142 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
What are you doing to maximize your pup’s food drive prior to tracking and how big and how much food are you using?
I feed him his morning rations first thing. 240g of his raw mince mix.

Quick tug play after his peeoh and then his only fun for the morning is tracking.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,453 Posts
Definitely track before feeding or play. The way you are doing it will decrease his motivation to track. How much and what size/type of food are you using? Part of his meal will be what he eats during tracking so you should cut back on his meal size.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
142 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Sorry - to clarify: His 240g raw lamb mix is all spread as little balls throughout the scent pad and that's all he gets.

Okay, will shift tug to after scent pad/tracking. :)

I also praise him a lot and tug gently/pull a bit of his harness line to get him to pull back into the job
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
142 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Probably a bit big honestly. The mince is wet af. Maybe I'll get my act together and defrost earlier so I can chill it.

So, FST is definitely the foundation of TTD?

Is TTD best understood as him just getting to the end goal using whatever he needs to?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,453 Posts
If your food is too big, your dog will become satiated too soon which will decrease his motivation to track. An example of good size food to use is a slice of hotdog about the size of a thin nickel. If you don’t want to use hotdogs, cooked chicken thighs cut into small squares is good. FST is a good foundation for TTD but your dog has to have strong hunt drive and usually the motivation is a bite or finding a person.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
142 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
If your food is too big, your dog will become satiated too soon which will decrease his motivation to track. An example of good size food to use is a slice of hotdog about the size of a thin nickel. If you don’t want to use hotdogs, cooked chicken thighs cut into small squares is good. FST is a good foundation for TTD but your dog has to have strong hunt drive and usually the motivation is a bite or finding a person.
Okay awesome. He seems to be pretty keen on prey, too.

To be honest our pup almost seems to go harder the less food there is? When he gets to the end.

I always drag him away before he's finished but.. would you give his "all done" as I have been giving when I pull him off?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,453 Posts
It depends on your goals. FST in IGP wants to see the dog methodically keep his nose to the ground and go from footstep to footstep. A lot of people put a “jackpot” at the end of the track such as a small pile of food or a toy to teach the dog there is something at the end worth working for rather than pulling the dog off the track. If you don’t foresee your dog TTD for a bite, after some foundation work, find someone else to lay the track and let your dog find him.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
142 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
What are the benefits of FST vs TTD? More accurate but much lower success rate?

My goals are to have a super dog that can do a bunch of awesome real world stuff but doesn't need titles.. but that's cool too.

So, maybe I could do his scent pads and then pull him off and love on him a bunch? Shower with praise, petting and maybe some tug? Rather than all done and dragging him off?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,453 Posts
If you pull your pup off the track and offer praise or a toy, you are reinforcing the dog coming off the track which is counterproductive. I would work on scent pads and get the food size and type right making sure you dog is highly food motivated. You can pull your pup off the scent pad using opposition reflex just before all the food is eaten to build frustration/drive. Then move to a series of three straight tracks with food in every footstep at the toe so the dog learns to smell the full length of the footstep. Stomp the ground whenever crushing vegetation. Do a lot of this and start to make the tracks longer with curves and then corners. Put more distance between you and your dog over time. It is not about one type of tracking being better than another. FST is for sport. If you want to move to TTD to find a person, switch to having someone else laying the track with the goal of your dog finding him. Don’t rush it and put in the time.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
142 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
So, hold on.. you say not to pull off but then to pull off.

How specifically would you end the scent pad session from: theres 1 or 2 pieces left and he's still going mad. No verbal cue? Pick him up or drag him off with lead?

Cheers Chip you're the man!
 
1 - 20 of 27 Posts
Top