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My first gsd could have been liver. Total fluke thing. It was a good breeding, father being one of the top dogs in the US. But I'm sure that's rare, it does happen. Ended up passing on her though because the breeder thought she'd be more dog than I was ready for...
 

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Yea I figured that. But, I strongly disagree with "show standards". I mean, look at the terrible things "show standards" has done to GSDs. Sloped backs, bad hips, hock-walking, so sad. Gsds are not what they used to be due to show standards. I think the liver color is beautiful, and should be bred.
The breed standard did not create these faults. It is how judges / breeders interpret the standards.
 

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Nope. I bought a liver and paid top price for him because he was "rare" (and beautiful). & with all of the bad things he had when I got him (anorexia, blood poop, worms, mites, etc) we figured they neglected him. I should push the law enforcement issue on the breeders. They are lucky my family and I are in love with him. But, he's in top shape now! We've had him 6 days, and he has done a complete 360 turn around.
Why do you ask?

Are you thinking of having another litter?
 

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Nope. I bought a liver and paid top price for him because he was "rare" (and beautiful). & with all of the bad things he had when I got him (anorexia, blood poop, worms, mites, etc) we figured they neglected him. I should push the law enforcement issue on the breeders. They are lucky my family and I are in love with him. But, he's in top shape now! We've had him 6 days, and he has done a complete 360 turn around.
That makes me so sad for you.. just that you paid top dollar and they scammed you.. not that you have a wonderful companion. I would def do something about them so they don't continue to breed these dogs.
 

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Thank you. I guess it was our bad for not researching thorougly on the liver color. But besides that, I have yet to see a liver in my state, so I will consider him a diamond in the rough ;) he's our precious boy! No matter the condition he was in, we figured he would be better off with us. Money is not as important as our dogs' health. We contacted them a few days later after we got him treated him and no responses. They changed their number. It would be wise of them to never show their faces again, because they will not be confronted nicely. I am working on finding where they live. QUOTE=wyoung2153;7123714]
Nope. I bought a liver and paid top price for him because he was "rare" (and beautiful). & with all of the bad things he had when I got him (anorexia, blood poop, worms, mites, etc) we figured they neglected him. I should push the law enforcement issue on the breeders. They are lucky my family and I are in love with him. But, he's in top shape now! We've had him 6 days, and he has done a complete 360 turn around.
That makes me so sad for you.. just that you paid top dollar and they scammed you.. not that you have a wonderful companion. I would def do something about them so they don't continue to breed these dogs.[/QUOTE]
 

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Discussion Starter #27
All i know is they bought his parents from a k9pines kennell..?
Nope. I bought a liver and paid top price for him because he was "rare" (and beautiful). & with all of the bad things he had when I got him (anorexia, blood poop, worms, mites, etc) we figured they neglected him. I should push the law enforcement issue on the breeders. They are lucky my family and I are in love with him. But, he's in top shape now! We've had him 6 days, and he has done a complete 360 turn around.
That makes me so sad for you.. just that you paid top dollar and they scammed you.. not that you have a wonderful companion. I would def do something about them so they don't continue to breed these dogs.
 

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I knew of 2 Liver colored GSDs in the course of decades of Shepherds. One was all brown like a Brown Bear, but lighter than a Chocolate Lab. He had very light eyes almost yellow. His nose and nails were a medium brown. His fur was stock length and plush. Owned by a security company this work line male was quite impressive to look at. ...The second dog was a very very curly [not wavy] plush coated female with stock length fur. She had a dark liver saddle and where the tan would be the liver had a strong rust red to it. Almost like a Irish Setter. Eyes were light [not yellow] as was her nose and nails. No mask at all on the face... Both dogs were stunning. Enjoy yours.
 

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Wow! Nice detail. Makes me love my boy even more! He has these bright yellow eyes. I think thats what made me and my kids fall inlove with him the most (aside from his personality). The liver GSDs are stunning!
I knew of 2 Liver colored GSDs in the course of decades of Shepherds. One was all brown like a Brown Bear, but lighter than a Chocolate Lab. He had very light eyes almost yellow. His nose and nails were a medium brown. His fur was stock length and plush. Owned by a security company this work line male was quite impressive to look at. ...The second dog was a very very curly [not wavy] plush coated female with stock length fur. She had a dark liver saddle and where the tan would be the liver had a strong rust red to it. Almost like a Irish Setter. Eyes were light [not yellow] as was her nose and nails. No mask at all on the face... Both dogs were stunning. Enjoy yours.
 

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excerpt from a Linda Shaw article - (in full New Page 1)





7. Four patterns of Blue. 8. Four patterns of Liver.
The blue and liver genes, once rare, now seem to have captured the imaginations of pet breeders, if my search of the internet is any indication. If otherwise well bred, they can be quite striking in appearance. They are not expressly forbidden, but the standard demands the nose leather be black, and these dilutions show blue and brown leather. The blue gene causes the black pigmentation in both hair and skin to turn steel grey, often very dark, while the tan ground remains much the same, or takes on a slightly silvery cast. The liver gene does much the same, turning black pigmentation brown. In both, the eyes take on a peculiar, silvery yellow colour. Both dilutions are simple recessives and can occur in all patterns, and when these recessives link, the result is the silvery fawn of the Weimaraner and Isabella Doberman Blues and fawns, according to Doberman breeders, tend to have poor hair coats, a good enough reason for culling them, but the so-called lethal gene once thought to be associated with liver appears not to exist. Blue, liver and white puppies should be placed in loving homes where they will be neutered and live as valued pets. Puppies should never be euthanized because of their colour.
 

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I fostered a long haired Liver puppy for the local rescue. That puppy was about as cute as can be. Here is a picture.

ImageUploadedByPG Free1438487504.448145.jpg
And in his new home.

ImageUploadedByPG Free1438487552.931247.jpg

I really fell in love with the coloring. If one popped up in a well bred litter I was looking at, I would have no problems getting one!
 

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Discussion Starter #33
He is gorgeous!! This really makes me feel blessed with the beauty of a liver GSD we have. Thanks for such a positive comment.
I fostered a long haired Liver puppy for the local rescue. That puppy was about as cute as can be. Here is a picture.

[iurl="http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=309466&d=1438487504"]
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And in his new home.

[iurl="http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=309474&d=1438487553"]
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I really fell in love with the coloring. If one popped up in a well bred litter I was looking at, I would have no problems getting one!
 

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I fostered a long haired Liver puppy for the local rescue. That puppy was about as cute as can be. Here is a picture.

View attachment 309466
And in his new home.

View attachment 309474

I really fell in love with the coloring. If one popped up in a well bred litter I was looking at, I would have no problems getting one!
What a doll! And I totally agree. I love 'rare'/unique colors in any animal, but don't seek them out for the reasons discussed on this thread. However, if an anomaly popped up in a well bred litter I would hop on the chance to own one.
 

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What a doll! And I totally agree. I love 'rare'/unique colors in any animal, but don't seek them out for the reasons discussed on this thread. However, if an anomaly popped up in a well bred litter I would hop on the chance to own one.
IOW don't breed for color. Breed for everything *right*.
 

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Uran Wildsteiger Land a modern pillar of the German Show lines is known for producing blue pups .

A friend of mine had a liver from the top specialty (Select / Grand Victor lines) American show lines . A beautiful dog. No health problems .

It happens .

What I can not stand is those that breed deliberately for commercial reasons --- promoting these colours as rare and exploiting new owners with outrageous prices .
 

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This reminds me of when I was breeding nigerian dwarf goats. The serious breeders are so opposed to blue eyes, moon spots and other flashy colors. Always saying "you can't milk a moonspot". If you had more than one fancy goat in your herd you'd be automatically laughed at by the "serious" breeders because you were obviously selecting for color.

I deliberately added some color to my herd. I didn't compromise on quality, went to a lot of trouble to do it (find worthy breeding stock that also had some flash). I did this for 2 reasons, 1, they are fun to look at. If I am looking at my herd every day they might as well be striking and 2, almost all of my neutered males went to pet homes and they were more likely to sell well if they looked cool. Knowing I would have 5-10 little boys per year trying to woo the pet market or else, giving them qualities that made them attractive to pet buyers was a no brainer.

I never made a breeding decision based on color, it was to improve any one of the attributes i was interested in: parasite resistance, easy to handle and milk, good mothering (we dam raised and if a doe rejected a litter I sold her. Plenty of people yank at birth and and bottle feed ) milk production, milkability of teats, udder attachments and body conformation. If I got lucky and found a colorful goat who could contribute something meaningful to the herd, why not?

Anyway. I have heard all the arguments about the whites, what is the problem with livers or blues? No need to breed FOR it, but if it comes out of a quality breeding why must they be culled into pet homes? I totally agree that if you breed FOR color vs. temperament, working ability ect you will produce pretty dogs who may be good for nothing.

But I really don't understand why a liver or a blue couldn't be allowed to prove himself (or not) to be included in a quality breeder's lineuo
 

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blues and livers are a fault on more than one level. They tend to have light eyes, light colored "leather" as well as being a diluted color.

Since breeding to the SV standard requires that a dog be titled in conformation as well as working, there is no point in not culling a pup that can't compete. It's like if you picked a Nigerian that didn't actually LOOK like a Nigerian and wanted to add it to your breeding program. Say you found a buck that is almost 30" tall. He's good in other ways but you KNOW that all his offspring are going to have the chance of being hugely oversized. And they will pass that down to their offspring and on and on. There is no shortage of quality breeding stock so why chose one that is "good except for..."

Flashy colors aren't a fault under the standard in Nigerians. Any color or combination of colors is allowed. I've seen plenty of flashy flocks so maybe it is just a belief in your area that "serious" breeders don't want it in their herd?

Most people I know pull kids at birth because they are milk goats and they sell milk.
 

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I guess what I am getting at is WHY is it a fault? Why does it matter? That's my point. Faulty temperament I get, physical problem, no brainer. But a dog of a different color :) who is otherwise breed worthy? Don't get it. That would be like saying Nigerians with moon spots can't go on milk test. I do think OH does are not eligible for top ten awards through ADGA which makes sense because a bigger doe will have a bigger bag and produce more milk and probably not fair to pit her against regular sized NDs.

And lol lots of breeders use oversized nigerian bucks, are you aware of the controversy over changing the standard to allow bigger bucks?

Well aware of why people pull kids at birth, I milked my herd and sold milk too and still dam raised. I couldn't go so far from the natural order of things that I would think and a doe who rejected her kids was great for breeding.....although one of the top herds in the country prides itself on having produced does who will deliver their kids and then walk away without another glance. That just doesn't work for me.

My point was there are other people who would be fine with a doe who was a crappy mother, but not me. People who bought my goats were mostly small scale homesteaders and they also wanted to dam raise, so selecting for that kind of trait didn't make sense.

Anyway, I can understand why some rules come into existence. Others seem kind of arbitrary. I suppose I can even understand people saying whites blend with sheep or can be seen at night or whatever...although I am not thoroughly convinced that those were the original reasons why white was disqualified. I have heard that Stephanitz preferred darker dogs, I have heard people say that white was never desirable, which I have never seen historical evidence of (not saying it isnt true just saying what I heard is just that, hearsay and I am a person who wants to see real proof before I believe something)

After long enough things take on a life of their own...whites were disqualified during Hitler if I am not mistaken and nobody could argue that he didn't have an agenda about racial profiling or whatever you want to call it, he tried to exterminate an entire people so I am not too quick to stand behind it if he had any influence over saying whites were inferior for whatever reason.

At any rate....I don't know why I even get into these discussions except that it bugs me when things don't seem to have a logical or reasonable basis....
 

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Yes there are plenty of flashy herds of NDs but they are generally snickered at by the "elite" breeders, whose herds tend to be significantly less colorful. I could name names but no point
 
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